Candyman ... or anyone else ... thoughts?

[Va_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by CREWZIN

If you think Paula is kidding, read this:

Virginia to issue traffic fines as high as $3,000 - USATODAY.com

CREWZIN the date on the article you quoted was 2007. Those fines were thrown out not more that 6 months after they were started mainly because they only applied to drivers that live in the state and not all drivers...

[CREWZIN]

Ooops. Well, anyway, the Virginia Troopers are still some BA boys that won't let anyone get away with illegal lights.

[prettybluewoody]

Candyman, I really don't want to get into a fight, but it's bad advice to tell Jabouty to go ahead with the under-carriage lights. They are, plain and simple, TOTALLY ILLEGAL while driving in this state, and that most certainly does include stopping at lights. Not because of the chance of distracting other drivers, by the way: it's due to the chances of the lights being broken by flying road debris, hence the reasoning behind the very limited times & places they are permitted.

Jabouty has asked a Virginia officer, who said DON'T. Crewzin and chris15's brother, both Florida officers, say DON'T. I --- merely a long-time resident of Virginia! --- advise DON'T. The ONLY person telling him to do it is a California resident: you. I assure you, he WILL be pulled over, Virginia police will NOT buy any 'oh sorry: I didn't realize!' story, and he WILL be fined and get points on his license for a moving violation.

[Candyman]

Hey Everyone,

Ok, let me see if I can maybe I try to rephrase some of my thoughts here a bit. Now, I fully agree with the fact that under body light kits, and so on are very distracting, and very much illegal to run on open roads of any kind in many States.

Prettybluewoody,

It is not my intention to fight as well. In fact, I hate fighting big time, just ask my Wife! Call it a genetic defect, or something but its just not in me!

Though I may have come across as a bit casual in my original answer, I can assure you that I try to always give the most accurate information I can, and would never intentionally offer poor advice to anyone at any time. It is also very much not my intention to downplay any Member of Law Reinforcement in the State of Virginia, or anywhere else for that matter, nor would I expect most anyone other than a Commercial DOT Officer, or a Weigh Master to have a really good working knowledge of Federal DOT Laws. My advice given in this circumstance was based upon my knowledge of Federal DOT Regulations acquired over my 10 years as a Professional Long Haul Truck Driver for Fed-Ex National LTL of which I Logged a little over 2,000,000 miles through 49 of 50 States, as well as most of Canada with 7 Top Driving Awards, a 100% clean Driving record with no accidents, tickets, or violations of any kind. Had I not felt sure of my advice on this, I can guarantee I would not have responded as I did! It has never been, or ever will be my intention on ever offering poor, or careless advice to a fellow PT Enthusiast under any circumstances at any time! I would like to think that Crewzin, along with all the other fine people who hang out on the Website would know me better than that given the information, I have tried to provide in the past. In this case, I was asked for by name, so I wanted to try to deliver the best advice I can offer!

Weather this is a good idea for a Mod, or not is not up to me, but I would never have advised that it was legal unless I was confident that it was within specific guidelines. Here are the basic minimum requirements for Lights on a Motor Vehicle as outlined by the Federal DOT.

1. Headlamps: Only 2 White, or 4 White Achieving 2 upper, and 2 lower beams located on Front of Vehicle

2. Tail Lamps: At least 2 Red on rear of Vehicle

3. Stop lamps: At least 2 Red on rear of Vehicle.

4. High Mounted Stop lamp Minimum 1 Red on or near the rear of Vehicle mounted Center, or Higher Suitable Location.

5. License Plate Lamp: At least 1 White to illuminate License Plate.

6. Parking Lamps: At least 2 Amber, or White

7. Reflectors: At least 2 Red on Rear, 2 Red at Rear Corners, and 2 Amber at both Front Corners.

8. Back-up Lamp At least 1 in rear of Vehicle

9. Turn Signals: At least 2 Red, or Amber on the Rear, and 2 Amber on both sides of front of Vehicle. These may also operate side marker lamps.

10. Hazard Warning Lights: Operating all Turn Signals, and Marker Lamps



Once you take an Amber, or Red Light, and attach it in a way where as it only illuminates with the Vehicles Safety System such as Brake Lights, or Turn Signal's, then it becomes part of that Safety System as long as it is clearly stamped at "DOT APPROVED", and meets Federal Regulations for size and placement overall.

As for Tail Lights, you must have at least two Lights that are positioned at a height no less than 15", and no higher than 80", and must be at least 50 Square Centimeters in diameter either as a single, or combination Unit Except
each passenger car manufactured on or after September 1, 1985, and each
multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck, and bus, whose overall width is
less than 80 inches, whose GVWR is 10,000 pounds or less, manufactured
on or after September 1, 1993, shall be equipped with a high-mounted
stop lamp which:

This information, and more can be found in PART 571--FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS in the Federal Department of Transportation Safety Handbook Subpart B, Sec. 571.108 under (Standard No. 108; Lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment.)

After going through the Codes outlined in the DOT Safety Manual, I am unable to locate any provision that outlines the specific restriction of additional Tail Lamps, or Turn Signals as long as they are used, and function for these specific purposes. In fact in the minimum requirements it is stated as "At least 2 Tail Lamps". I am also unable to find a provision outlining where such Lamps may, or may not be placed be specifically placed on a Motor Vehicle as long as they meet DOT Regulations. This also applies to both front and back Turn Signals as well as long as they are solely used for that specific purpose, and again meet DOT Regulations.

If you ever watch Trucks Cruising down the Interstate at night, many of the guys who own their Trucks like to add a lot of Lights to their Rig which pretty much is a fun Mod for the Driver. What I was getting at is that All Company Trucks run the bare minimum, while a lot of Owner Operators often love to add lights to show off their Rig as they roll down the road! They may have as many as 6 - 8 Tail Lights / Brake Lights, across the back of the Tractor, Rear of the Cab, and even down as far as the Mudflaps. Add to that, at least as many Turn Signals, and literally Hundreds of Running Lights all over their Trucks, and Trailers, I mean to the point where you would think they would need a Generator just to keep up! While this is not my style. the point I was going for here is that each, and every one is still fully compliant by Federal DOT Law in all 50 States as long as they fit within the Federal Safety Guidelines.

Now, Hot Rodders are a bit different as far as light requirements as they kind of try to stretch around the current Laws, and Regulations. For example, lets say a Shop went and built a brand new Reproduction Kit of a 32 Ford Coupe. The Car is completely new fabrication from the ground up including Frame, Engine, Body, and so on. Well, a lot of Hot Rodders have been known for some time for going ahead and registering the car as a real 32 Ford which in return means basically that by DOT standards its exempt from Smog, Head, and Tail Lights placement, and the list goes on, which is why you may see really cool LED's flush mounted in the bottom of the Roll Pan that can barely be seen. Yeah, that is pretty messed up, but that's the facts of life I recon!


Bottom line, Legally their is no Federal Regulation which specifies quantity, or specific location of additional Tail Lights, or Turn Signals as long as they meet the DOT Regulations, and are only used with the current Safety Systems already on the Vehicle in question provided that Safety Systems meets the minimum DOT Regulations as well.

With this said, does that give you the freedom to go put 1000 lights all over your ride? No! It just means that under Federal Laws currently in place, you can in fact add Brake Lights, and Turn Signals to the lower or bottom part of your PT within a reasonable proximity to your existing Tail Lights, Turn Signals, and so on, as part of your Safety System on your PT, and be ok.

This is also not to say that a Law Officer in the State of Virginia, or anywhere else for that matter wouldn't stop you in a heartbeat, and write you up a good sized ticket, but as long as you are compliant with Federal Law, the Ticket will not hold up in a Court of Law. If you are ever in a position where you are unsure of a Mod of this nature, I would highly recommend swinging by the DMV in your area and pick up a free copy of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Handbook to have with you in your PT just in case. That way you can show an Officer that you are compliant if necessarily.


Go easy, and I thank both of you for your concern on my potentially giving some off advice to a fellow Member. If I wasn't confident in my advice I guarantee their is no way I would have responded in the manner of which I did without a doubt ever! That is a promise!

You guys go easy,

Candyman

[Jabouty]

LOL

Well done.

Sorry, I didn't mean to start nuthing, was just having a brain storm moment last week and wanted input.

Thank you everyone who has dropped input thus far, and CM especially for the insightful post there. I've always wondered why the truckers could get away with lighting up the night, but my spotlight on my truck was considered illegal to have installed (story for another time, let's just say that spotlighting a cop as he came up to the truck (as they do to you, quid pro quo) seemed like a good idea at the time).

Aside from the potential legal issues, what are your guys' thoughts on the idea overall?

[Candyman]

Hey their Jabouty,

Yeah, I recon I kinda got my cage rattled a bit their.

For the official Record, in many circumstances Aftermarket Lights can be distracting, and disruptive, and may result in unforeseen danger, to one's self, or other drivers on the roadway, and therefore for the safety of EVERYONE I totally, and completely believe in the MAJORITY of AFTERMARKET LIGHT KITS which are clearly marked as, or otherwise intended for (off road use only, at a show, non highway use, or any, and all other potentially dangerous, or questionable situations where as which may potentially become a Legally related issue by Federal, State, or Local Law, or by way of getting any of our friendly and caring PT People anywhere within the continental United States frustrated, concerned, or otherwise upset with me) to probably not be used in any way that may be, or become dangerous to one's self, or others around which may result in bad thing if something goes wrong.
I am afraid I am must stay neutral in this matter as to not create the potential for further conflict in reference to this, or any other future mod's that may come into any kind of a Legal questionable nature at any time in the future. ...

Officially off the record, I think it might be a pretty cool mod!



Go easy, and I'll catch ya later!

Candymn

[Jabouty]

You sure yer not a lawyer? You've got a damned good sense of CYA ROFL.

[Candyman]

Hey their Jabouty

I know huh! LOL

I used to get really, really bored while waiting on many a loading dock waiting for my loads back once upon a time before I could afford a TV on the truck so I used to pick up the Safety Handbook which is required to be in every Truck at all times and read off stuff. In fact, in this circumstance I actually got an old book here in my desk at the computer to look stuff up with just in case.

That, and I really love paint and body work from way back, and used to love moving stuff like lights, and so on around for no apparent reason but to just make it look cooler, and aggravate my Wife! I also did some hard learning early on, on what and where I could put things according to the DMV pretty and be able to get away with it!

Go easy,

Candyman