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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 14 Dec 2015, 08:10 pm
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 46
Default Water pump trick

OK, I joined awhile back when I bought a very resonable PT for my grand daughter. It turned out to not be such a great deal as it needed a new waterpump. When I investegated, I found to my dismay that is a very big job. I generally do all my own work, but was not really in the mood to work on this alot. Anyways if you are only interested in the trick you can skip down to the last pic. Otherwise read on.

Anyways, fast forward to last weekend, me and my grand daughter dove in head first. Armed with a chilton, we tore it down. This is a terible job and I recomend paying someone to do it or junk the car. But we proceeded. The car is running good now and my grand daughter is on cloud nine.

First, Ill show you a pic of the waterpump. I saw some pics on this forum of a pump that the sheet metal vanes were wore down to nothing. Thats what I was expecting. This was not the case. The impeller was not sheet metal, but cast iron. It was not worn down, but the center was hollowed out completly. It just fell out when I pulled off the pump. The effect was the same, no flow. The new pump has the cheep looking sheet metal impeller.



Now for the trick. If you read the manual, it tells you to remove everything off the engine front so you can take off the inside belt cover. But I found that if you make a few sergical cuts in the cover, you can save yourself alot of time.

Here is a pic of the cut piece. If your considering this job, you should look close. I made the cuts with a soldering iron and hack saw. The piece is reinstalled with two screws. It and the piece it was cut from are both solidly in place.



I removed the top and bottom cover, metal engine mount and timing belt before making the cuts and removing just this piece. This ment I didnt have to remove the camshaft gears or any of the idlers. But after looking at this, I might have been able to do the job without removing the lower cover. (and pulling the crankshaft pulley.) That would really have been nice. NOT only for time, but not having to buy a puller for $70.

In any case, the job will be easier if there is a next time. I hope that this will be found in a search. I wonder if someone has allready done this. If not, Im glad to help others out.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 14 Dec 2015, 11:25 pm
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura, CA, USA.
Posts: 150
Default Re: Water pump trick

Thanks!

Did you replace the timing belt and tensioner while you were in there?
Also unfortunately to get to the cam and crank seal, that shroud has to be taken off. Usually people do it all at the same time since the labor to just get to those items is the same and the cost difference minimal.
__________________
______________________________________________
Most misunderstandings in the world could be avoided if people would simply take the time to ask, "What else could this mean?
______________________________________________
2001 PT Cruiser LE 5 spd, original owner, no mods, MOOG arms with spherical bushing (ride is now a bit harsher vs OEM)
- 109K replaced timing belt/WP/tensioner/idler/crank&cam seals with same 1st gen design. That was a fun day and half!
- 119K Gates water pump failed after only 10K miles. Replaced with Airtex. This time around it was a 7 hour job.

2001 PT Cruiser LE AT 59K miles. Bought used, newest addition to the family
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 15 Dec 2015, 06:29 am
Senior Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: SW PA
Posts: 1,348
Default Re: Water pump trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helirich View Post
OK, I joined awhile back when I bought a very resonable PT for my grand daughter. It turned out to not be such a great deal as it needed a new waterpump. When I investegated, I found to my dismay that is a very big job. I generally do all my own work, but was not really in the mood to work on this alot. Anyways if you are only interested in the trick you can skip down to the last pic. Otherwise read on.

Anyways, fast forward to last weekend, me and my grand daughter dove in head first. Armed with a chilton, we tore it down. This is a terible job and I recomend paying someone to do it or junk the car. But we proceeded. The car is running good now and my grand daughter is on cloud nine.

First, Ill show you a pic of the waterpump. I saw some pics on this forum of a pump that the sheet metal vanes were wore down to nothing. Thats what I was expecting. This was not the case. The impeller was not sheet metal, but cast iron. It was not worn down, but the center was hollowed out completly. It just fell out when I pulled off the pump. The effect was the same, no flow. The new pump has the cheep looking sheet metal impeller.



Now for the trick. If you read the manual, it tells you to remove everything off the engine front so you can take off the inside belt cover. But I found that if you make a few sergical cuts in the cover, you can save yourself alot of time.

Here is a pic of the cut piece. If your considering this job, you should look close. I made the cuts with a soldering iron and hack saw. The piece is reinstalled with two screws. It and the piece it was cut from are both solidly in place.



I removed the top and bottom cover, metal engine mount and timing belt before making the cuts and removing just this piece. This ment I didnt have to remove the camshaft gears or any of the idlers. But after looking at this, I might have been able to do the job without removing the lower cover. (and pulling the crankshaft pulley.) That would really have been nice. NOT only for time, but not having to buy a puller for $70.

In any case, the job will be easier if there is a next time. I hope that this will be found in a search. I wonder if someone has allready done this. If not, Im glad to help others out.
The time you spent with your grand daughter is "PRICELESS"
Probedude and rckstein like this.
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73 Charger SE
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 15 Dec 2015, 09:33 am
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 46
Default Re: Water pump trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Probedude View Post
Thanks!

Did you replace the timing belt and tensioner while you were in there?
Also unfortunately to get to the cam and crank seal, that shroud has to be taken off. Usually people do it all at the same time since the labor to just get to those items is the same and the cost difference minimal.
Before starting this project, I went to Advanced Auto to make sure they had the pump in stock. I didn't actually buy anything as I wanted to evaluate what I had. They not only had the pump, but they kits that included the pump, belt, tensioner and idler. When I got it apart, everything looked and felt new, except the pump. So I left it alone. That's one thing about this trick, you couldn't change the belt. But I would recumend using this trick to get to a point to decide if you want to go further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeX View Post
The time you spent with your grand daughter is "PRICELESS"
I sappose, but I can think of better things to do with her.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 15 Dec 2015, 11:12 am
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Beckley, W.V.
Posts: 13,895
Default Re: Water pump trick

These belts can look great. Mine did. Until you fold it back on itself. It piped a crack between one of the notches. if I was there and had no proof of change. At the very least I would slip a new belt on. To much work to take a chance. But on another note. I don't be leave the PT came with a CAST impeller. So it may have been changed.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 15 Dec 2015, 11:46 am
rckstein's Avatar
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Location: Texas
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Default Re: Water pump trick

This Gates PT water pump appears to have a more substantial impeller than the stock pump.




Last edited by rckstein; 15 Dec 2015 at 11:52 am.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 16 Dec 2015, 12:43 am
Regular Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura, CA, USA.
Posts: 150
Default Re: Water pump trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by rckstein View Post
This Gates PT water pump appears to have a more substantial impeller than the stock pump.

First off Helirich - I think you jinxed me. Went to get ready to go somewhere in our recently purchased used 2001 PT and I see a spot on the driveway about a inch in diameter - coolant - DAMN! Only 60K miles right now but it is a 15 year old car. This New Years weekend I'll be tearing into it to do the WP, seals, idler/tensioner and belt. This will make it 3 years in a row doing this. Glad I bought the 'official' tools.

Rick - Not necessarily. The 'white box' pump that came with my Gates kit 2 years ago was stamped metal. This time I'll be getting the gates kit but without the water pump and separately buy the Airtex pump.
__________________
______________________________________________
Most misunderstandings in the world could be avoided if people would simply take the time to ask, "What else could this mean?
______________________________________________
2001 PT Cruiser LE 5 spd, original owner, no mods, MOOG arms with spherical bushing (ride is now a bit harsher vs OEM)
- 109K replaced timing belt/WP/tensioner/idler/crank&cam seals with same 1st gen design. That was a fun day and half!
- 119K Gates water pump failed after only 10K miles. Replaced with Airtex. This time around it was a 7 hour job.

2001 PT Cruiser LE AT 59K miles. Bought used, newest addition to the family
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 16 Dec 2015, 01:41 am
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Default Re: Water pump trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Probedude View Post
First off Helirich - I think you jinxed me. Went to get ready to go somewhere in our recently purchased used 2001 PT and I see a spot on the driveway about a inch in diameter - coolant - DAMN! Only 60K miles right now but it is a 15 year old car. This New Years weekend I'll be tearing into it to do the WP, seals, idler/tensioner and belt. This will make it 3 years in a row doing this. Glad I bought the 'official' tools.

Rick - Not necessarily. The 'white box' pump that came with my Gates kit 2 years ago was stamped metal. This time I'll be getting the gates kit but without the water pump and separately buy the Airtex pump.
The Gates 41006 is advertised on RockAuto website (and several others) as having a "cast iron" impeller.

The Airtex AW7156 (below) has the same type of stamped metal impeller as the MOPAR water pump. On several websites that I have searched to see the specifications of the Airtex pump, all it states is, "The latest impeller upgrades engineered for maximum coolant flow."



Granted, it does meet all the OEM specs and has a lifetime warranty, same as the Gates, so then the question is which is the better impeller, stamped metal like OEM or cast iron, or does it not matter at all?

In this case, the cast iron impeller, which should be the more sturdy of the two types available, may not be better as the OP reports that his water pump with the cast iron impeller had a pretty severe failure. And according to "Busted_PT" no PT's came with a cast iron impeller water pump, which means that the OP's water pump had been replaced at least once already. From what I can find out in his posts, he has an '04 but doesn't say how many miles. But the pump he just put on would now be the vehicles' 3rd and, IMO, a water pump should last at least 100,000 miles until the timing belt work is needed.
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Last edited by rckstein; 16 Dec 2015 at 01:59 am.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 16 Dec 2015, 09:51 am
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 46
Default Re: Water pump trick

First, Probedude, sorry to hear that, but I think I would be doing a lot of checking before I tear into the water pump. Could be just leaking from a hose. Good luck.

Second, Rckstein, my PT has almost 200,000 on it and the belt looked new. So I expect it has been replaced. I agree the cast impeller may not be any better. I saw a pic on this forum where the blades were wore down to "nubs". I think the cast would not do this, but the heavy rotating mass may lead to other problems like mine.

A while back I did some research on coolants and I was surprised to find that the old coolants (green) have abrasive quality to them. I believe it was silicates in them. (Basicly sand) This wares out heater cores, water pumps and the like. The new "Dex Cool" by GM is not suppose to do that. I use it in everything now. (I have a Ford, Chevy, New holland tractor, custom 4x4 diesel and now the PT.) I'm thinking if you use the Dex Cool, you won't have the impeller blades ware down.

The only thing I should mention is drain your cooling system completely and rinse with water before filling with Dex. I was told that Dex mixed with older collants will turn to jelly. (Won't flow)

I could be wrong about this because I did the research on the net. Everybody knows they can't lie on the internet.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 16 Dec 2015, 09:57 am
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Default Re: Water pump trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helirich View Post
First, Probedude, sorry to hear that, but I think I would be doing a lot of checking before I tear into the water pump. Could be just leaking from a hose. Good luck.

Second, Rckstein, my PT has almost 200,000 on it and the belt looked new. So I expect it has been replaced. I agree the cast impeller may not be any better. I saw a pic on this forum where the blades were wore down to "nubs". I think the cast would not do this, but the heavy rotating mass may lead to other problems like mine.

A while back I did some research on coolants and I was surprised to find that the old coolants (green) have abrasive quality to them. I believe it was silicates in them. (Basicly sand) This wares out heater cores, water pumps and the like. The new "Dex Cool" by GM is not suppose to do that. I use it in everything now. (I have a Ford, Chevy, New holland tractor, custom 4x4 diesel and now the PT.) I'm thinking if you use the Dex Cool, you won't have the impeller blades ware down.

The only thing I should mention is drain your cooling system completely and rinse with water before filling with Dex. I was told that Dex mixed with older collants will turn to jelly. (Won't flow)

I could be wrong about this because I did the research on the net. Everybody knows they can't lie on the internet.
Then you are about on about track for another water pump replacement.
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