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Timing Belt Change, I think I've Hit Rock Bottom

 
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Old 03 Apr 2017, 11:44 pm
rsrocket1's Avatar
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Default Timing Belt Change, this saga is turning into a blog!

I took a long lunch and spent 1-1/2 hours trying to get the belt over the tensioner puller and could not. Of course like everything else on this car, the tensioner is about 1/16" too far out at its furthest setting (1/4" socket pointing down). I tried for another hour after work and nearly gave up.

Then I said "these things can't be manufactured to that close of a tolerance, what if I got one barely too short and the tensioner is barely too long. So I went to Autozone and bought another timing belt for $34. This one was also just barely too short to fit over the pulley but it was a little less stiff than the one from Rock Auto and with a little extra effort, it snapped over the pulley!


I spent the next hour aligning, tensioning and removing the belt while trying to get the camshafts and crankshaft marks to align and not slip. Removal and installation was difficult but do-able.







Of course you do all this and find out you moved the crankshaft

The pot metal used for the 1/4" tensioner adjustment is really weak and doesn't handle too many back and forth adjustment.

Darkness set in along with the mosquito's so back to it again for another couple of hours tomorrow as time permits.

I'm not going to need a six pack if/when this gets done, I'll need a case of 24 beers or a fifth of Jack Daniels.

Last edited by rsrocket1; 05 Apr 2017 at 12:22 pm. Reason: The "never ending saga"
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Old 04 Apr 2017, 12:13 am
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Default Re: Timing Belt Change, I think I've Hit Rock Bottom

hang in there...
If it make you feel any better I did my belt in 30 hr and I had a lift
But I hit the mark's second time around.
I know you hate your car about now
but when its all said and done The miles will bring back the smiles
.
.
......W..
.
.
.
rsrocket1 likes this.
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If you answered “yes” then parts car is a really good idea.
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Old 04 Apr 2017, 10:06 am
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Default Re: Timing Belt Change, I think I've Hit Rock Bottom

I'll tell you some good points that are listed in my sticky on the subject. Use some kind of clamps on the pulleys. The paper clamps with the folding handles work great for this. Clam each as you go. Checking that the alignment from the crank and the first cam captured is right. Then when you have that right, clamp it. Then you can move on to capturing the exact cam. Make sure the point at each other and aligned with the center line of the cam bolts. If that looks good clamp that. If you need to roll the alignment to get back on marks at any point. Use a wrench to pull it back to the marks. Either by the crank or cam bolts. Depending on whitch direction you need to go. Holding pressure at all times on the belt with your hand. Once you have all your marks right. It's time for the tensioner. Useing either crank with a wrench and rotate towards the tensioner. As it moves you thread the belt onto the tensioner. Now rotate to align the marks. Making sure not to leave your clams on if you go to fully rotate the belt. But you can just back up the rotation to the marks useing the wrench. Then make your tensioner adjustment. Once you have that. Rotate two full turns and align the marks. If good check you tensioner adjustment and redo if a little off. And at that point, everything lines up. Take a picture of the aligned marks. Then get the engine hooked back up to test start. A quick start and smooth running. Your good. Don't run very long. No water in the engine. At this point l then put it back in alignment and even rechecked my tensioner alignment. That's just me. All is good. Button it up. Don't forget to take those pictures. If you run into problems later. You will even after all this begin to question the alignment. That's when you go back and look and see that you have it right or not. And move on to whatever is holding you up. Good luck. To you. Go look at my HATMONIC BALANCER TIPS AND TRICKS. I have pictures to go with all this.

If you're chasing the half a tooth thing. That may be where you're going wrong. I took my belt off four times because it aligned perfect each time. Then it occurred to me. You can't actually do half a tooth. Your either on off or dear on. No half.
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Last edited by Busted_PT; 04 Apr 2017 at 10:14 am.
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Old 04 Apr 2017, 01:04 pm
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Default Re: Timing Belt Change, I think I've Hit Rock Bottom

I hate to say, but I can almost guarantee those cam wheel marks are off... pull the bolts out and put a straight edge across all four marks to be sure....if I remember correctly, two 6" 1/4" drive extensions in the cam holes and a hose clamp will keep the cams put. a stubby broad tip screwdriver inbetween the engine and crank will kinda hold it. when my tensioner stripped I went to either a 1/4" ratchet or a slightly bigger metric/standard allen key, I cant remember. if you have the gates belt.... USE IT.

Last edited by rambojoe; 04 Apr 2017 at 01:11 pm.
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Old 04 Apr 2017, 01:47 pm
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Default Re: Timing Belt Change, I think I've Hit Rock Bottom

Thanks Busted,
I'll read through your tips. I borrowed a 3 jaw puller "expressly for Chrysler engines" from Autozone to remove the harmonic balancer. The longest rod bottomed out before the balancer came out fully. Not only that, but the rod siezed up in the puller bolt hole. I returned it and they gave me a full refund anyway. I then went to O'Reilley to borrow one of theirs and it looked the same but I got it anyway but first checked to ensure the longest rod fit and removed from the center bolt.

Same result, the bolt bottomed out before the balancer was off the crankshaft. So I simply threaded in he harmonic balancer bolt and used the puller bolt to press against it and the balancer came off! Since the distance pulled wasn't very far, I doubt there was excessive force put on the bolt and crankshaft threads.

I do use clamps when holding the belt. I learned that trick last May when I replaced the TB on my Subaru Outback. It occurred to me that I noticed some rust on the front cam shaft sprocket where the oil seal sat so I said to myself "you'd better clean that off or you may have an oil leak in the future" so at 5AM this morning, I was once again removing the cam sprockets, idler pulley, center motor mount and rear timing belt cover so that I can clean up the rust. Now I'm glad I bought the cam adjuster/holder tool because it makes short order of holding the cam sprockets while using a breaker bar to loosen the bolts or torque them back on with 80 ft-lbs.
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Old 04 Apr 2017, 04:41 pm
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Default Re: Timing Belt Change, I think I've Hit Rock Bottom

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsrocket1 View Post
Thanks Busted,
I'll read through your tips. I borrowed a 3 jaw puller "expressly for Chrysler engines" from Autozone to remove the harmonic balancer. The longest rod bottomed out before the balancer came out fully. Not only that, but the rod siezed up in the puller bolt hole. I returned it and they gave me a full refund anyway. I then went to O'Reilley to borrow one of theirs and it looked the same but I got it anyway but first checked to ensure the longest rod fit and removed from the center bolt.

Same result, the bolt bottomed out before the balancer was off the crankshaft. So I simply threaded in he harmonic balancer bolt and used the puller bolt to press against it and the balancer came off! Since the distance pulled wasn't very far, I doubt there was excessive force put on the bolt and crankshaft threads.

I do use clamps when holding the belt. I learned that trick last May when I replaced the TB on my Subaru Outback. It occurred to me that I noticed some rust on the front cam shaft sprocket where the oil seal sat so I said to myself "you'd better clean that off or you may have an oil leak in the future" so at 5AM this morning, I was once again removing the cam sprockets, idler pulley, center motor mount and rear timing belt cover so that I can clean up the rust. Now I'm glad I bought the cam adjuster/holder tool because it makes short order of holding the cam sprockets while using a breaker bar to loosen the bolts or torque them back on with 80 ft-lbs.
Do not use the outer marks. And you don't need the bolts to see the center line of the cams. the outer marks will get you confused. Kerpnus informed of any questions. We're here to help our PT people going down the road and out of the poor house.
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03 Dream stock___________________________ 04 Touring turbo lite stock_________ 02 Touring stock_____________________ The "Three Amigos"
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________Performance, Body and Service, OEM

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http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/...oject-1-a.html

This is a great read from one of our own! Badglas
badglas.blogspot.com
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Old 04 Apr 2017, 04:46 pm
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Default This afternoon's saga

So I duck out for lunch again to put another hour into the TB ordeal. Today I buy another pair of camshaft oil seals because I wanted to remove the rust off the sprocket shafts and just in case I ruin a seal or 2, I'll have spares. I'm glad I got them because I chewed the 2 installed seals pretty well when removing them. I think I drove them in too deep because reading the shop manual, I was supposed to only push them in flush with the head.

I sanded the rust off with some #400 grit wet/dry paper, cleaned off the surface, lightly greased the seals and installed them. Then I reinstalled the rear cover, the idler pulley and camshaft sprockets @ 80 ft-lbs, bolted down one hole of the center motor mount and put the timing belt back on, lined up all the marks and adjusted the tensioner using the telescoping mirror.

You can't turn the crankshaft unless the 19mm bolt is really torqued down because you need to turn it clockwise which will loosen the bolt so I blipped it with the impact wrench. OK, all marks still lined up, 2 full rotations of the crankshaft. Crankshaft lined up on the arrow, I get up to look at the camshaft sprockets. ARRRGH!!



But before putting everything away and going back to work, I made marks on the intake sprocket and exhaust sprocket knowing that I'm lined up properly except for one tooth on the exhaust sprocket:




Hopefully, I got that right, but it should be obvious if I went the wrong way.
More stuff to look forward to tonight.

P.S. Now that I look at it, it probably should be 1 tooth in the opposite direction. Oh well, I can erase the magic marker and re-do it before taking the belt off again.

Last edited by rsrocket1; 04 Apr 2017 at 04:48 pm.
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Old 04 Apr 2017, 05:12 pm
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Default Re: This afternoon's saga

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsrocket1 View Post
So I duck out for lunch again to put another hour into the TB ordeal. Today I buy another pair of camshaft oil seals because I wanted to remove the rust off the sprocket shafts and just in case I ruin a seal or 2, I'll have spares. I'm glad I got them because I chewed the 2 installed seals pretty well when removing them. I think I drove them in too deep because reading the shop manual, I was supposed to only push them in flush with the head.

I sanded the rust off with some #400 grit wet/dry paper, cleaned off the surface, lightly greased the seals and installed them. Then I reinstalled the rear cover, the idler pulley and camshaft sprockets @ 80 ft-lbs, bolted down one hole of the center motor mount and put the timing belt back on, lined up all the marks and adjusted the tensioner using the telescoping mirror.

You can't turn the crankshaft unless the 19mm bolt is really torqued down because you need to turn it clockwise which will loosen the bolt so I blipped it with the impact wrench. OK, all marks still lined up, 2 full rotations of the crankshaft. Crankshaft lined up on the arrow, I get up to look at the camshaft sprockets. ARRRGH!!



But before putting everything away and going back to work, I made marks on the intake sprocket and exhaust sprocket knowing that I'm lined up properly except for one tooth on the exhaust sprocket:




Hopefully, I got that right, but it should be obvious if I went the wrong way.
More stuff to look forward to tonight.

P.S. Now that I look at it, it probably should be 1 tooth in the opposite direction. Oh well, I can erase the magic marker and re-do it before taking the belt off again.
you just need to wipe off the mark on the sprocket. And move it to the arrow on the sprocket. And dot the pulpy. You need to go clock wise on the pulley or counter clock on the belt. lol you're almost there.
__________________

03 Dream stock___________________________ 04 Touring turbo lite stock_________ 02 Touring stock_____________________ The "Three Amigos"
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________Performance, Body and Service, OEM

This Is my project page.
http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/...oject-1-a.html

This is a great read from one of our own! Badglas
badglas.blogspot.com
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Old 04 Apr 2017, 11:16 pm
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Default Success on aligning the belt, but more problems. Update on next message

I got the belt aligned through crankshaft revolutions and the tensioner stayed in place. The top and bottom belt covers went on without a hitch but the big metal bracket doesn't seem to line up properly with the 2 top 15mm bolts in place!

The bottom of the bracket is sticking out too far when the top two bolts get tightened down. I know I have to lower the engine from it's highest raised position to get the bottom 15mm bolt into the bracket, but the bottom is sticking out too far as if something is out of alignment. The bracket doesn't seem to form a seal with the rear timing belt cover, but that might be simply because of the alignment issue. I did use a 15mm bolt to align the tensioner bracket, but it was a silver bolt, not the black bracket bolt. Now I'm wondering if the tensioner is not aligned perfectly which is causing the bracket not to seat properly.

If that's the case, or if the rear cover is not a perfect match, it all has to come off again.

Did any one else ever have an issue with lining up the heavy motor mount bracket onto the engine and find the solution?

Well, if I have to go back down to removing the rear cover and checking the alignment of the tensioner bracket and taking the cover over to a Chrysler Dealership to see if there are any differences, I'm only a couple of hours into it from today at noon when I installed the 2nd set of cam seals.

Last edited by rsrocket1; 05 Apr 2017 at 11:13 am. Reason: Update
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Old 05 Apr 2017, 11:30 am
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Default Wednesday morning update

Well, it actually took less than 1/2 hour before dawn to tear the side down to the tensioner bracket again and remove the rear cover to test fit the engine mount bracket.




The 15mm engine bolt threaded into the empty tensioner bracket hole fairly easily but it felt like it may not have been exactly centered.


The heavy metal bracket seemed to fit flush against the rear timing belt cover both in the front and back
Front Fit


Back Fit


So I loosened the other tensioner bracket bolt, threaded the motor mount 15mm bracket bolt in about 5 threads wiggled the tensioner back and forth and slowly tightened the rear bolt making sure the front hole was centered in the temporary bolt.

I then hand tightened the rear TB cover onto the engine and maneuvered the iron bracket back in. After putting the 2 top 15mm bolts in, the bracket seemed to be more parallel with the rear TB cover. I haven't been able to screw in the lower 15mm bolt because I would have to lower the engine to do that, but the center motor mount is preventing me from lowering the engine. I'll have to figure that out later today after work.

That was all I was able to do by 7:15 AM. I think I'll do several more step-by-step test fittings with the front covers before I install the sprockets and timing belt and do a real button-up attempt.

Last edited by rsrocket1; 05 Apr 2017 at 12:23 pm.
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