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Multi-function switch... but not...

 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11 Oct 2017, 03:42 pm
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Cedar Lake, Indiana
Posts: 13
Angry Multi-function switch... but not...

This is my first time posting. I'll post later on in the introductions area, but right now I am having a major issue.

2008 PT Cruiser, base model (VIN B), no fog lights.

My headlights, turn signals, and wiper controls are all dead. It started intermittently - sometimes they'd work, then nothing - but when the malfunction happens, whatever was "on" remains "on". Drove home with left signal and high-beams on for the last mile or two.

I've read all over here and everywhere else I've looked that I need to replace the Multi-Function switch. I purchased one at AutoZone (Duralast) and it worked. For a day.

This morning, I got in the car and no wipers (it had rained overnight). I borrowed a car, and figured I'd go to another local AutoZone that had it in stock, and just claim it was DOA. They swapped it out no problem. However, I'm sure you can tell since I am here, that did not work either. Nor does my original one, not even intermittently.

SO... given the way this control stick is designed, it seems to behave much like a USB game controller (for lack of a better analogy). Only 4 wires connect it to the car (a hand full of yellow wires connect the wiper stick as well). One is definitely ground and one is +12V, the other two I assume signal wires that tell the computer what switch you activate, and the computer makes it happen.

All that said, I took apart much of the dash, followed the wires as far as I could (almost to the firewall) and tested the wires with a DMM for continuity, while flexing/bending/twisting them to rule out an intermittent frayed or broken wire. So at least inside the car, and where it flexes with the tilt steering, is all fine for all 4 wires.

That leaves me wanting to think computer... however if I replace the computer with a used one, will it need to be programmed for my key (assuming the scrap yard doesn't have the matching FOB from the same car)?

My main question - and I am currently awaiting a service manual - is basically, how can I find the two signal wires *at the computer* so I can check continuity for the entire run? Without untaping all of the wire bundles and hoping no color combos are re-used (it's white w/green, and red w/white)? Any ideas?

Attached is the column with new MFS and then the wiring below, re-taped together...



Attached Images
File Type: jpg pt1.jpg (20.2 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg pt2.jpg (18.5 KB, 31 views)

Last edited by CREWZIN; 11 Oct 2017 at 06:40 pm.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11 Oct 2017, 03:47 pm
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Cedar Lake, Indiana
Posts: 13
Default Re: Multi-function switch... but not...

Just to reply to my own first post here... are those size limits on attached images correct? Seems a bit small to capture much detail... or is that a "member level" thing?

(EDIT) maybe if I host them remotely and just link to it, it'll show in a more appropriate size?

Anyway I wanted to point out how happy I was when I *thought* I had the darned thing fixed yesterday - it worked (but so did my old one - again it was intermittent at that time). I was so happy I made a stupid video...

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11 Oct 2017, 03:50 pm
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 7,308
Default Re: Multi-function switch... but not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jm4n69 View Post
This is my first time posting. I'll post later on in the introductions area, but right now I am having a major issue.

2008 PT Cruiser, base model (VIN B), no fog lights.

My headlights, turn signals, and wiper controls are all dead. It started intermittently - sometimes they'd work, then nothing - but when the malfunction happens, whatever was "on" remains "on". Drove home with left signal and high-beams on for the last mile or two.

I've read all over here and everywhere else I've looked that I need to replace the Multi-Function switch. I purchased one at AutoZone (Duralast) and it worked. For a day.

This morning, I got in the car and no wipers (it had rained overnight). I borrowed a car, and figured I'd go to another local AutoZone that had it in stock, and just claim it was DOA. They swapped it out no problem. However, I'm sure you can tell since I am here, that did not work either. Nor does my original one, not even intermittently.

SO... given the way this control stick is designed, it seems to behave much like a USB game controller (for lack of a better analogy). Only 4 wires connect it to the car (a hand full of yellow wires connect the wiper stick as well). One is definitely ground and one is +12V, the other two I assume signal wires that tell the computer what switch you activate, and the computer makes it happen.

All that said, I took apart much of the dash, followed the wires as far as I could (almost to the firewall) and tested the wires with a DMM for continuity, while flexing/bending/twisting them to rule out an intermittent frayed or broken wire. So at least inside the car, and where it flexes with the tilt steering, is all fine for all 4 wires.

That leaves me wanting to think computer... however if I replace the computer with a used one, will it need to be programmed for my key (assuming the scrap yard doesn't have the matching FOB from the same car)?

My main question - and I am currently awaiting a service manual - is basically, how can I find the two signal wires *at the computer* so I can check continuity for the entire run? Without untaping all of the wire bundles and hoping no color combos are re-used (it's white w/green, and red w/white)? Any ideas?

Attached is the column with new MFS and then the wiring below, re-taped together...
I would suggest checking to see if the TIPM is involved. I will look at the wiring diagram when I have a chance and post what I find out.
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 03:55 pm
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Cedar Lake, Indiana
Posts: 13
Default Re: Multi-function switch... but not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptcruisersteve View Post
I would suggest checking to see if the TIPM is involved. I will look at the wiring diagram when I have a chance and post what I find out.
I had checked both the larger 30A fuse ("Headlamp/Washer Relay Control") as well as the smaller 10A mini-fuse ("Headlamp/Washer Control"). Fuses are good and read 12V... but I shy at opening up the power module any further than the top cover lol... unless I have to of course...
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 06:13 pm
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 7,308
Default Re: Multi-function switch... but not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jm4n69 View Post
I had checked both the larger 30A fuse ("Headlamp/Washer Relay Control") as well as the smaller 10A mini-fuse ("Headlamp/Washer Control"). Fuses are good and read 12V... but I shy at opening up the power module any further than the top cover lol... unless I have to of course...
The TIPM is definitely involved in your issues.

I looked at the wiring diagram and I would suggest you check the ground wiring first. You might have weak grounds causing your problems.


On my 2007 & 2008 PT Cruisers the ground wires going to the driver's fender there are 2 sets. The 2 sets are recognized in the factory manual as G102 & G105. Its hard to provide all the components it provides ground to.

Left side inner fender - G105 has ground wires for bus communications, VTSS, Fuel pump and ignition system, Horn, Turn Signals, A/C, Front lights, Vehicle Speed Control, etc.

Left side fender - G102 has ground wires for Fuse Relay Block, TIPM, Rear Lightening, Wipers, etc,


Ground Wires.jpg

Sometimes you have to take the wires apart to see if they are really making contact.
Broken G104 wires.jpg
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2006 Turn Signal TIPM.jpg (4.0 KB, 8 views)
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Last edited by ptcruisersteve; 11 Oct 2017 at 06:39 pm.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11 Oct 2017, 06:16 pm
rckstein's Avatar
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,518
Default Re: Multi-function switch... but not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jm4n69 View Post
This is my first time posting. I'll post later on in the introductions area, but right now I am having a major issue.

2008 PT Cruiser, base model (VIN B), no fog lights.

My headlights, turn signals, and wiper controls are all dead. It started intermittently - sometimes they'd work, then nothing - but when the malfunction happens, whatever was "on" remains "on". Drove home with left signal and high-beams on for the last mile or two.

I've read all over here and everywhere else I've looked that I need to replace the Multi-Function switch. I purchased one at AutoZone (Duralast) and it worked. For a day.

This morning, I got in the car and no wipers (it had rained overnight). I borrowed a car, and figured I'd go to another local AutoZone that had it in stock, and just claim it was DOA. They swapped it out no problem. However, I'm sure you can tell since I am here, that did not work either. Nor does my original one, not even intermittently.

SO... given the way this control stick is designed, it seems to behave much like a USB game controller (for lack of a better analogy). Only 4 wires connect it to the car (a hand full of yellow wires connect the wiper stick as well). One is definitely ground and one is +12V, the other two I assume signal wires that tell the computer what switch you activate, and the computer makes it happen.

All that said, I took apart much of the dash, followed the wires as far as I could (almost to the firewall) and tested the wires with a DMM for continuity, while flexing/bending/twisting them to rule out an intermittent frayed or broken wire. So at least inside the car, and where it flexes with the tilt steering, is all fine for all 4 wires.

That leaves me wanting to think computer... however if I replace the computer with a used one, will it need to be programmed for my key (assuming the scrap yard doesn't have the matching FOB from the same car)?

My main question - and I am currently awaiting a service manual - is basically, how can I find the two signal wires *at the computer* so I can check continuity for the entire run? Without untaping all of the wire bundles and hoping no color combos are re-used (it's white w/green, and red w/white)? Any ideas?

Attached is the column with new MFS and then the wiring below, re-taped together...
Welcome to the forum

I sent you a PM with links to download the manuals from my DropBox
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 06:24 pm
RickinPA's Avatar
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: southeastern PA
Posts: 300
Default Re: Multi-function switch... but not...

You can check the wiring for continuity. The first thing is to go through the wiring diagrams in the service manual to sort thing out. Disconnect the battery. Then probe connector to connector to check for continuity / breaks / high resistance. Probing the connectors may require careful use of fine wire or even a needle. Be careful not to damage the connector contacts.

Over the summer I had a problem getting "low throttle position sensor voltage" codes in a Neon. After replacing the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) and still getting the code, I had to troubleshoot it. I ended up printing out about a dozen pages from the service manual to determine the wire routing and the connector pin out. The wiring split from the throttle position sensor and went to three different connectors on the PCM (Powertrain Control Module = the car's computer). It turned out the +5 volt supply line had high resistance (about 6 megohm). The wire was broken somewhere deep in the wiring loom. I ended up splicing a new wire from the TPS to the connector on the PCM. That fixed the problem.

At one point I had the PCM on my desk in the house. I told my wife "That's the brains of the Neon". She said "I hope you can get that back in". I said "I hope so too". I did. It works. It can be done.
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 06:28 pm
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darien, IL | Forest Park, IL
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Default Re: Multi-function switch... but not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jm4n69 View Post
are those size limits on attached images correct? Seems a bit small to capture much detail...

your pic above that i clicked was 442px wide. forum rules say 800 is the limit. in my experience you can push it a bit when needed to capture details for something important... just ..shh
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 08:20 pm
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Cedar Lake, Indiana
Posts: 13
Thumbs up Re: Multi-function switch... but not...

I knew this was the right place to join

So thanks to rckstein, page 2619 of 7183 of the service manual shows the wiring diagram I was most interested in. Turns out the white/green wire, that sends the data from the MFS, first passes through the Hazard button which on '06 and up is in the center under the stereo.

I popped that panel off and found a loose connection. A wiggle and a click sound and everything is perfect now!

* I have done a ton of "messing around" in that general area; wired up a permanent 100-watt inverter + dual USB (will put pic tomorrow after I put everything back together, too dark right now); wired up a dual-camera dash/backup cam; routed phone charger and audio-input to where my phone holder sits... so most likely, last time I was in there I failed to click that connector all the way in.

So $97 later (don't think I can return the MFS at this point, plus it has a much "newer" feel to it than the original) and I found my own carelessness was the culprit.

Thanks to all who have responded. I almost dug into the ground wire issue, as I had a lot of things disconnected when I did the head replacement... luckily it was just something stupid, and hopefully this bit of info might help someone else avoid having to track this down -- check the hazard button if the MFS appears dead!
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 08:47 pm
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,518
Default Re: Multi-function switch... but not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jm4n69 View Post
I knew this was the right place to join

So thanks to rckstein, page 2619 of 7183 of the service manual shows the wiring diagram I was most interested in. Turns out the white/green wire, that sends the data from the MFS, first passes through the Hazard button which on '06 and up is in the center under the stereo.

I popped that panel off and found a loose connection. A wiggle and a click sound and everything is perfect now!

* I have done a ton of "messing around" in that general area; wired up a permanent 100-watt inverter + dual USB (will put pic tomorrow after I put everything back together, too dark right now); wired up a dual-camera dash/backup cam; routed phone charger and audio-input to where my phone holder sits... so most likely, last time I was in there I failed to click that connector all the way in.

So $97 later (don't think I can return the MFS at this point, plus it has a much "newer" feel to it than the original) and I found my own carelessness was the culprit.

Thanks to all who have responded. I almost dug into the ground wire issue, as I had a lot of things disconnected when I did the head replacement... luckily it was just something stupid, and hopefully this bit of info might help someone else avoid having to track this down -- check the hazard button if the MFS appears dead!
Glad to hear that you found your trouble and it was an easy and cheap fix! Thanks for coming back to report

You could probably still return the MFS as many others have reported problems with the after-market MFS. Or if you did experience some problem in the near future related to the MFS, put the old one back in.

When you get a chance please go to Welcome New PT Cruiser Members - PT Cruiser Forum and create an intro thread.
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