Hybrid Performance

[calicranberry]

even at 3 bucks a gallon, current hybrids do not make economic sense. any fuel savings do not overcome their initial higher cost and other factors like higher repair costs and lower resale value (there is a long article about it in consumer reports out now). you would have to drive a prius for years to see any value, compared to buying a fuel efficient gasoline car such as an echo or civic. same would be true to spend lots of dough at the local radio shack to make a hybrid cruiser. gas would have to get real expensive or you would have to drive lots of miles to see a return on the investment. as more hybrids get out perhaps the prices will be lower. and as more customers and companies get used to plugging in cars and convert to the plug in style hybrids like you mentioned (a very popular mod for a prius here in socal by the way), then the gas mileage may increase enough to make economic sense. i think what would help the gas problem now would be for people to drive a little better (i'm trying to slow down a bit to improve my mileage, and i'm getting blown off the freeway)and get rid of all the hummers and other gas guzzelers out there. a family that drives a big suburban could save lots in fuel costs and reduce their environmental impact by simply switching to a mini van or smaller suv with better mileage. i'd agree that flex fuel vehicles are worth looking at, imagine a flex fuel hybrid?!?!

[strangelove]

quote:i'd agree that flex fuel vehicles are worth looking at, imagine a flex fuel hybrid?!?!

Well Cali your in luck, there is a Tri-Fuel Hybrid on the market now called the Obvio 828. You can run regular gasoline or pure ethanol in it and there are plans to have a hybrid engine package in it soon. These types of cars are called "Tribrids" for the time being.

http://www.obvio.ind.br/obviona/828.htm





It's interesting to note that both BMW and DaimlerChrysler have teamed up to create the TRITEC engine that powers the Obvio autos, which are produced in Brazil, but when will we see this type of technology filter into the Untited States?

A company called Zap is selling the car, and I have been thinking of getting a 828 for my wife to run about town with. $14,000 gets you a Tritec engine, Continuously Variable Transmission, Fomula one style paddle gear changer, four Mcpherson suspension and four wheel disc brakes. This car is not only designed to get great gas milage it is also designed for great handling and drivability, in the same line as a BMW Mini Cooper.

Personally I am waiting for the Tri-Fuel Hybrid to become available, and you bet I will be one of the people in front of the line for one of these pocket rockets.

Now if only DC had cars like this in it's horizon then they would get my repeat business as for now we are stuck with tinkering around with our own PT's to get better performance and milage out of them.

[strangelove]

It's wierd how over 600 people have read this thread yet not very many people have an opinion on this subject. Is this such a crazy idea that nobody wants to respond to it, or are people just reluctant to chat about technology they are not accustomed to chatting about. Since I am not a treehugger, nor am I much of an environmentalist, I'm not sure why there are not more PT Cruiser owners that want to modify their PT's to go faster with a new technology. 0-60 in 4 seconds, can't dismiss those numbers.

[fritz_t_coyote]

quote:Originally posted by strangelove

It's wierd how over 600 people have read this thread yet not very many people have an opinion on this subject. Is this such a crazy idea that nobody wants to respond to it, or are people just reluctant to chat about technology they are not accustomed to chatting about. Since I am not a treehugger, nor am I much of an environmentalist, I'm not sure why there are not more PT Cruiser owners that want to modify their PT's to go faster with a new technology. 0-60 in 4 seconds, can't dismiss those numbers.

"Rear Wheel Electric Kit"
Doing this will cost thousands, maybe tens of thousands of dollars for a prototype sytem of unknown reliability, with the added attraction of reengineering the braking system (introducing unreliable prototyping into a critical safety system), reducing the already limited trunk capacity, for a gain of x horses and/or y mpg.

Maybe someday someone (not me, and apparently, not anyone on this forum) will offer this in a kit that can be bolted on over a weekend. But before you order it... test drive a Pious and tell me if you don't think those regenerative brakes feel a little bit unresponsive.

E85 Conversion:
If you want to spend a couple of grand converting to accept a fuel that is only available in a few places, go right ahead. By the way, since e85 has less 'power' per gallon, your fuel mileage and performace will go DOWN. But once the economics make sense, e85 may have a shiney future powering vehicles that were factory equipped to use it, and cars economically retrofitted with mass-produced conversion kits.


What makes economic sense for most of us is to suck it up and pay the (still-cheap-by-world-standards) gas prices OR trade in for something that gets better mileage.

As for performance, most of us will spend hundreds on 'probably works' and a couple thousand on 'proven to work'.

Show me the ETs for the rear-wheel-electric PT and we will be interested.

[strangelove]

All right you want proof. Wells heres proof, click on this link and watch a EV postal van go from 0-60 in less than 2 seconds.

http://www.suckamps.com/index.php?pa...ing#2nd_outing

In fact here is a link to a bunch of EV vehicles.

http://www.suckamps.com/index.php?pa..._team_vehicles

If you go to the Philidelphia High School web site or just read the beginning of this thread you will see that their hybrid goes 0-60 in 4 seconds.

Here's a picture of an awesome EV Mod Hot Rod



So I think proof of concept is an old topic. I'm done trying to convince people that there is huge power gains waiting to be explored in this field. So if your not interested in talking about whats possible, don't bother responding to this thread. But if your interested in increasing performance, increasing acceleration, increasing handling than please feel free to discuss the possibilities.

[calicranberry]

quote:Originally posted by strangelove

It's wierd how over 600 people have read this thread yet not very many people have an opinion on this subject. Is this such a crazy idea that nobody wants to respond to it, or are people just reluctant to chat about technology they are not accustomed to chatting about. Since I am not a treehugger, nor am I much of an environmentalist, I'm not sure why there are not more PT Cruiser owners that want to modify their PT's to go faster with a new technology. 0-60 in 4 seconds, can't dismiss those numbers.

i think both fritz and i have already answered the question. the technology is too new and expensive to be put to practical use. like we said, it would cost more than maybe your cruiser is worth to do any type of hybrid upgrade with the current systems, nevermind something in a race prototype evo.
also, consider that current hybrids that are more performance minded(the accord, the lexus RXh) do not show any significant gas mileage increase, and produce about the same emissions. in the case of the cruiser, why make a turbo charged car that requires premium fuel for best performance a hybrid, what is the benefit? you would still need to pay premium prices and would never make up the cost of installing a hybrid system. as for performance, dumping a 40 hp electric motor (the size of the prius one)in a blown engine sounds like pissing on a forrest fire, it may help but not much. you would need the 40 horses to overcome the significant weight of the battery and motor, and all the other radio shack parts to make it work. if you want 0 to 60 in 4 seconds, it would be cheaper and easier to add a NOS system.
i think hybrids are a great idea and agree that the technology needs to be supported. but we are at the start of the technology, there needs to be time to see what works best and what is cost effective. i doubt that we will soon see a bolt on hybrid kit for any car (toyota introduced the new camry a year early so they could get a hybrid one on the market, since the cost of retrofitting the system onto the previous generation was too much). my wife wanted a hybrid, but there are none out now that were practical enough for our family and still delivered better fuel economy. we purchased a mazda5 with the hopes that in three to five years there will be a better (and cheaper) hybrid solution.

[strangelove]

I've been pricing out components to see if it is affordable and what I've found is that 6,000 to 7,000 gets you in the range of adding the right amount of acceleration performance with fuel ecomomy to make things worth while. Here is a quick list of parts and prices.

MOTOR: Refurbished AC motor from a forklift $500-2,000
MOTOR CONTROLER: Used to accelerate and decelerate $700-1,500
MOTOR MOUNT: Aluminum plate $100
DC-DC Converter: Changes Output Voltage $150-300
BATTERIES: Eight 12-volt lead acid batteries $500-2,000
CHARGING MODULE: To rechage batteries $1,500-3,000

There are two prices for some of these components since you can find these items used at an industrial parts refubisher, or get them new (more expensive) from shops like the Surplus Center. So if you were going to go with all used parts the cost would be around $3,500. If you were going to go with all new parts it would cost you around $9,000.

With appreciation being what it is these days, maybee your right, a mod like this would probably cost me more than my PT is worth. But hell I've had my PT for three years now and making it into a hybrid is the coolest thing I've come across to modify the engine. So the choice for me is do I get a different car or do I modify the PT I have. Well shelling out 14,000 for another ho hum gasoline car does'nt excite me anymore. I'm looking for something more.

[fritz_t_coyote]

quote:Originally posted by strangelove

All right you want proof. Wells heres proof, click on this link and watch a EV postal van go from 0-60 in less than 2 seconds.

No, I said "Show me the ETs for the rear-wheel-electric PT and we will be interested."

Yes, great possibilities.... but ... none of those were PTs. And few of them were anywhere near being 'dependable daily drivers'... unless you happen to live 1/4 mile from work via a private road and have chargers ready on both ends.

I look for plug-and-play performance and appearance for my daily driver. I gotta get to work, so I gotta keep the Wee Beastie reliable and economical. Some of the others who hang out here want good looking add-ons for their sunny day show cars... and might consider the Hybridized system to be just the thing to get a couple of extra points in the judging.

(And A PT would surely have a leg-up in the looks department over most of the hybrids I've seen.)

A number of clever capitalists have made money selling us things we want to buy.

Now, the home-grown-hybrid PT concept is a cool idea. But the engineering is another question...

Until a cool-looking, reliable, cost-effective add-on is ready, my $ will be staying in my pocket.

But: If you are engineering one, hey, go for it. I figure the hub mounted motor/generators behind the 20" rear wheels will add an interesting look.

As for the cost? Have you seen how much people have spent 'Lamboing' doors? Go for it ... and keep us posted.

Only one bit of advice: You gotta keep some sort of non-electric brakes on the rear wheels... regenerative braking will slow you down... but cannot stop you completely.

[strangelove]

Hey Coyote, I agree a bolt on application would be awesome, but from the experience I've gotten from this thread alone it does'nt look like there are to many people willing to go out on a limb on this idea. The only thing left to do is to do it yourself.

The other week I went to the San Mateo Convention center for the "Maker Fair" sponsered by Make magazine. It was a real eye opener as to how many people are interested in building and modifying hybrid vehicles and diy technology. The Maker Fair covered things from 100 MPG Hybrid conversions and Build your own EV's, free wireless LAN, how to build your own wind generators for $100 bucks, how to remote control your Roomba with a computer, to how to build your own fighting robot for Battle Bots, how to make your computer into an all in one entertainment system, DIY PVR, DIY wireless media streamer, DIY media server etc. All DIY and all on the cheap. A lot of misfit technology, but also a lot of practical application technology as well. The whole experience has re-ignited my interest in building a solar and wind energy grid to power my house and earn me credit through PG&E for the wintertime, as well as improving my PT Cruisers divability. This is all benificial technology which really doesn't cost an arm and a leg. In fact it pays for itself in the long run. Man if I knew these hippies were really on to something I would have had a solar and wind generator on my roof a long time ago.

If you want some more info on the whole Hybrid EV movement go to Electrifyling Times. Funny thing is I think these are the same guys that put out the PT Cruiser Quartely.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/

Check out this old guy and his EV Hotrod, goes by the name Father Time.

[robinjoe]

I think this is a very compelling discussion. Considering that the electric motors in most of the currnt hybrids produce something in the neighborhood of 245 lb-ft at 0 RPM.

The little Prius Hybrid motor is only 67 HP (at 1200 RPM), but produces 295 ft-lb of torque at 0 RPM. I'm not an expert, but I would think that would would be a big help in 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

Is that true? Of course the hybrid system adds weight too.

Whoever develops a working in-wheel based hybrid bolt on system could make a fortune.

Joe