Hybrid Performance

[strangelove]

OK here is a question aimed to all the gearheads on this site. Would it be possible to add performance to a front wheel drive car like the PT Turbo by adding electric AC motors to the rear wheels? In essence keeping the PT Turbo engine running the same, but adding a hybrid electric motor package to the rear wheels to assist and increase acceleration and aid in fuel economy during cruising highway speeds. Think it can't be done. Check out what these kids built in their Philidelphia High School car shop.

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/08/15/hybrid-attack/




What I'm proposing is a bolt on application designed for the PT in mind. I'm thinking that all you would need is a array of lithium batteries made by this company.

http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/products.php?sec=3&id=2


Speed control sensors to accelerate the wheels and shut off the wheels to allow for regenerative braking. And a AC motor like these designed by Mitsubishi for their Evo line. These are in wheel motors which would need little to no modification to the rear axle or suspension. The brakes could be thrown out since the AC motors will slow down during regenerative braking.

http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=172




First: Is something like this doable, and what type of performance gains could one expect from building a performance hybrid system like this?

Second: How much would a performance hybrid system like this cost?

[CREWZIN]

Good luck on that one. A degree in electrical engineering would help plus access to all kinds of equipment. If it was as easy as your thinking, there would be private hybrids all over the place. If you have the money, time and place to work, have at it. Maybe you can sell the plans for the finished product and make some money back.

[strangelove]

Well a degree in electrical engineering is something I do not have, nor the technical skill required to do so. But I am able to think out of the box, that's my job, official out of the box thinker, and my thoughts are this: If DC isn't able to see the obvious, which is create a hybrid based on it's most popular car the PT Cruiser (there plan is to start selling Smart Cars?) Then the job will fall to "Can Do Americans."

It shocks me that many of the posts on this site begin with CAI's, Plastic Manifolds, Stage II PCU's, what oil to put in your PT, etc, one common thread always asked or mentioned is, does it increase fuel economy. Let's face it, when gas costs $2.50 a gallon nation wide, not to mention what we pay to heat our homes, we need to start asking the hard questions; how can we modify our engines while keeping them fuel effecient for daily use? This fact hit home as I was driving to Las Vegas for Super Bowl weekend, I thought the gas price from California to Nevada would be dramatic, and I should save some money filling up in Nevada. Nope the price was the same, gas used to be 20 cents cheaper in Vegas. Those days are over. Face it when President Bush says "America is addicted to oil" then you bet my ears are listening and my brian gears start turning.

As far as creating a finished product, that's for designers, engineers and car parts manufacturers to figure out. I'm just putting the idea out there; this is why this thread is on a general discussion board rather than a performance board. I'm just curious to hear what others think about the idea.

I just think that the potential of increasing performance, adding 4wd handling and traction, while possibly increasing fuel economy is a pretty interesting concept. All the parts are available to do it, why not discuss the possibilities.

[strangelove]

Wow no comments. Guess I'm standing on a soap box on this one. [?]

[Topless in Cali]

Check out the rear axel in the PT. You will never be able to get drive axels to the rear wheels without removing the stock suspension completely and engineering a new system. For that kind of time and money, I'd rather get the AGP big turbo kit

[strangelove]

Interesting comment, yes price wise and current market modifications are capable of doing what your suggesting and probably cheaper. What I'm talking about obviusly does not currently exist and would probably be very expensive to design and implement. A hybrid system like this would be technically difficult to make work as well. But what do you think about the articles that I posted to this thread? What do you think about the Phili High School concept car? What do you think about the in wheel electric motor designed by Mitsubish? It's not uncommon to think of Misubishi components in the PT Cruiser, since the manifold and turbo technology derives from Mitsubishi components. Lets take a leap and invision other Mitsubishi technology improving performance in our PT Cruisers.

http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/di...icle&artid=172

If you look at the design of the Mitsubishi in wheel moter you will see that it just replaces the wheel and brake system. One would not need to make any modifications to the axle, or susspension. It just replaces the rear wheels with electric motors. The electric motor sits inside what looks to be a bearing that is connected to the tires. The electric motor turns the wheel, in turn creating propulsion to accelerate the vehicle. In the article about the concept Evo, Mitsubishi is currently running the vehicle in the Shikoku EV Ralley. So these in-wheel motors are already in production and being used in test scenarios. I know that these motors will take years to make it to consumers, I am just very interested to think if this application can be used and modified to work on our PT's.

[strangelove]

Something you might want to consider also that a hybrid system can be added to any PT cruiser, bone stock or even modded to the max PT's. What if someone had every mod that could possibly be done to their PT turbo; CAI, AGP Big Turbo, AGP WGA, Carbon Fiber Manifold, Stage I PCU, increased flow fuel injectors, Port and Polished engine, 3 inch downpipe, High Flow Cat, Mopar Duals, Boost Controler, water injection system, larger intercooler, etc. The amount of modifications to the engine is endless. Bottom line there is some point that you will reach when it is no longer possible to squeeze out any more horsepower out of a four cylider engine. You might be pushing 300hp, but would it be wise to run an engine this modified through 4:00pm rush hour traffic, friday evening on HWY 405 in downtown Los Angeles.

Here's another scenario take that 300 horsepower PT Turbo engine that might accelerate a Cruiser from 0-60 in 5 seconds. Pretty fast right, what happens, wheel spin would probably prevent you from acheiving faster acceleration right.

Now think of that 300 HP PT Turbo 4 banger powering the front wheels and a performance hybrid, ac in-wheel motors powering the rear wheels.
0-60 in 4 seconds with added hybrid power to the rear wheels, is it Possible? To me it's clear, at some point mods to the engine will reach a limit. What this post is all about is going a step beyond that limit and finding a new avenue to increase performance. Is it possible or is it just a pipe dream. Well all I know is some kids in Phillie did it, why can't I, or anyone else for that matter.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml

So what I'm saying this performance hybrid system can be added to any PT engine, modified or not. In any engine setup this system would still be able to increase acceleration and handling. Handling since by adding power to the rear wheels you are then making the PT into a Four Wheel Drive vehicle. Add FWD to your acceleration and what does that mean, improved traction so less wheel spin equals faster 0-60 times. Throw the car into a tight turn added traction control to the rear wheels means less skid, more control, means faster acceleration out of a turn. Snow or wet roads, well with added traction to the rear wheels and traction control controlling the front wheels, pass up that big rig that's slowing down traffic in the right lane.

The possibilities are endless, if your not afraid to dream a little. So when you guys have modded your engines to the max and are reaching the 300 HP wall, and stressing every bolt and gasket holding your engines together, the only way for you to go faster is to either replace the engine with a V8 engine, or add rocket fuel to your gas tank.

Or you could add a performance hybrid system and take some of the strain off your engines and still beat the pants off a Vette.

[SteelBlueGT]

Well soon we will find out what 300 HP at the flywheel wil do as the new SRT 4 Caliber will be in production!!

[strangelove]

Wow the Caliber engine is one to drool for. Guess the German engineering and American know how is really joining forces on this one. It's impressive how they were able to engineer a four cylinder engine to run that efficiently and still keeping it under warrenty. I think when the engine in my PT poops out I'll be replacing it with a 2.4 turbocherged I4 engine. 23 city / 26 hwy seems a little conservative knowing how our PT engines actually run.

http://www.dodge.com/caliber/vehicle.html

This is further proof that DC is putting all their R&D into the Dodge platform. We will probably see little performance development for the PT Cruiser since DC has pegged Chrysler as it's family luxery demographic. This is why it is so important for PT entusiasts to push performance of the PT in whichever direction possible. Dodge will see performance enhancements starting from the SRT line to benifit the Caliber, SRT4, Viper, Magnum, and Nitro. Just look at that name lineup, sounds like a Ultimate Fighting Championship Bout or something. Chrysler will probably see more interior enhancements like satalite radio, 20 different seating arrangments, fold flat back seats, extended cargo area, and convenient fold out hangers to hang your jacket on.

Not to stray to far from the original post topic here is a concept car from Ford, called the Reflex. It has a diesel engine powering the front wheels and a hybrid engine powering the back wheels. Sound familiar. Well you can expect more concept cars like this in the future, and not some far off future, but the near and present future. Check it out.


http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/ne...?news_id=13688

Ford- "Reflex features an advanced diesel-electric hybrid propulsion system that harnesses diesel, electric and solar power. This combination of power can deliver maximum fuel economy � up to 65 mpg � without compromising performance.

The concept features an electric motor on the rear axle in addition to the hybrid propulsion system on the front axle. The rear motor provides all-wheel-drive capability, improved driving dynamics and the fuel economy benefits of a full hybrid vehicle.

The Ford Reflex concept features solar panels in the headlamps and taillamps that recharge the hybrid-electric battery pack, and solar panels in the roof that power electric fans to cool the interior while the vehicle is parked.

Reflex's energy is stored in a new-generation lithium-ion battery pack, using the same technology found in cell phones. Ford was the first manufacturer to produce an electric vehicle using this type of battery system when it introduced the electric Ford Ka research vehicle in 2000. Also contributing to Reflex's power and performance are unique headlamps and taillamps that integrate solar panels. The Ford-patented battery-charging lighting system improves fuel economy by using the sun's power to charge the on-board batteries, while capturing and reusing the daylight at night."

[strangelove]

Well thought I'd try to reserect this topic. With Gas now at $3.00 dollars a gallon and summer prices for gas reaching close to $4.00 can we afford not to look to alternatives like Hybrid, or modify our PT engines to accept E85 Gasoline. I just read an interesting article from Make magazine which details how to make your own Electric Vehicle for $7,000 with parts readily available. Make your own Hybrid and save money driving around town with the electric motors powering you around town. When your ready to get on the highway rev the PT engine and your off. If anyone is interested in the article I can scan it and post it.

A friend of mine converted his Toyota Prius to be able to recharge the battery with a wall plug and to keep the engine idleing letting the electric engine do all the work for city driving. With a press of the button he can turn the gas engine on and cruise along faster. He gets about 100 miles per gallon!!!