Interesting thread on the SRT Forum

[macster]

quote:Originally posted by ptgtcb

If PVO would have designed the system to pass CARB in the first place we would not be having this conversation and do not tell me it was not possible or expensive, we do it every day and we do not have all the Factory engineering sitting in front of us, we have to disect the ECU, which can cost some money. All the original R&D should have included CARB exemption. Apparently the Stage I PCM is not OBD II compliant and the stage I-II-III........ Were never intended to be emissions legal from the start and easily could have been. My guess is there was a rush to market it.
What I now ask is why the original B.S. I received from TurboG and BJ@DCX that the kits were pending CARB approval when all along they were never designed to be and never could be! For a company not to be able to see the benefits to emissions legal performance parts is uncomprehensible,stuuupid.
Those of you who say well don't buy it are missing the point, we could have had the same performance and be emissions compliant if PVO would have took the initiative, not the shortcut. Could have been the best of both worlds, instead the best of no worlds.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah, blah blah. Sorry Bro, but we've been there done that, seen it read that. It's time to move on. No disrespect intended, but this warranty/Carb implementation/compliance ain't gonna happen. It's sorta like everyone loving his neighbor as his self. It's a wonderful to have, but it ain't gonna happen. Life is like that, deal with it, and move on. I feel for you folks that have warranty/carbphobia, but now that we heard it numerous times, it's starting to be very annoying. It appears that everytime we get a good post going, someone, has gotta start waah waahing about the warranty/CARB issue. Bottom line, I'm rolling the dice, if I roll snake eyes then its on me. But the dealership will lose my business. (yup the loss of the one car that I purchase every 6 years will put them under) Again the point of my topic/post was to get people to see that the DCX PVO team is putting a lot of engineering behind these MODs. For instance the testing under extreme conditions, wow that is good stuff. Sorta like fatigue tests in my business. You test it till fails and then you fix it and test it again. That stuff costs money and takes talent. Maybe we could start another topic named people who are not concerned with the Stage(*)warranty/CARB issue and who don't want to hear about it any more. Well I'm done and I apologize if I offended anyone, I'll take my beating like a man.

macster

[Cal Cruzer]

Same on this side of the track. We get tired of people with their head in the sand saying that "it doesn't matter, Mopar can do not wrong. That is the way it was in the 60's and that is fine with me. I'll pay the fines, I'll duck every time I go into a dealership and hope they don't see the stage 1". We just want what most other manufacurers provide these days, a street legal upgrade. Even aftermarket companies providing blowers, heads, intakes, you name it, seem to be able to meet CARB standards yet DC can't figure it out? Where IS all that eningeering?

[3BarBoost]

quote:Originally posted by ptgtcb
If PVO would have designed the system to pass CARB in the first place we would not be having this conversation and do not tell me it was not possible or expensive, we do it every day and we do not have all the Factory engineering sitting in front of us, we have to disect the ECU, which can cost some money. All the original R&D should have included CARB exemption. Apparently the Stage I PCM is not OBD II compliant and the stage I-II-III........ Were never intended to be emissions legal from the start and easily could have been. My guess is there was a rush to market it.
What I now ask is why the original B.S. I received from TurboG and BJ@DCX that the kits were pending CARB approval when all along they were never designed to be and never could be! For a company not to be able to see the benefits to emissions legal performance parts is uncomprehensible,stuuupid.
Those of you who say well don't buy it are missing the point, we could have had the same performance and be emissions compliant if PVO would have took the initiative, not the shortcut. Could have been the best of both worlds, instead the best of no worlds.

Okay. Let's presume I (and Dodgetweaker) haven't been over this several times. The CARB EO process is expensive if it is done right. It is not impossible to obtain, nor is the system designed to explicitly not pass any emissions test. OBDII is a comprehensive set of diagnostics that monitors roughly 2400 processes simultaneously, making sure if the engine does malfunction the subsystem that caused it is properly identified for ease of service (ie getting a polluting car back in compliance without having to go to the dealer ten times). Making sure those diagnostics function is HARD (read expensive). I dare you to find any other OBDII-compliant performance upgrade (with the exception of Toyota's blowers - it's the only one we could find). OBDI is dead simple to pass - and that is where most of the perfomance market is.

Having said all that, there are several PT and SRT owners with Stage 1 in california who HAVE PASSED the e-check. HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? Obviously if the kit is not legal (not supporting all 2400 diagnostics), then it shouldn't pass - right? No, actually the e-check only checks 16 monitors. And the sniffer was no sweat. All the CARB Executive Order requires is certification that the modification does not effect emissions in ANY WAY. Well, the expensive part for us is making three of those 2400 monitors function when the engine operates outside the zone it was intended. After a year of study, we said on several different occasions: we will be pursuing EO numbers and we won't be. It was news to me that the matter settled on the latter.

I could go on and on, but I really haven't the energy to contradict everything said. Maybe a few more brave souls will try the e-check and report back their experience.

[SteelBlueGT]

I have never doubted that the good engineers at DC have designed stage 1 and stage 2 so they could pass emissions sniffer test, just that they dont have the emissions cert and therefore not legal for street operations in calif!! 3 Bar are you saying that OBDII certs do not exist anywhere but at Toyota??? What about all those Ford Mustang Blowers that say they are Calif legal for 2003 Mustangs and lightnings??

[3BarBoost]

You're right - I should amend the EO number thing to 'OEM' OBDII-compliant upgrades.

[azptcruiser]

I appreciate all of the information that everyone is providing throughout these forums as it relates to the turbo and stages. But it seems to me in all of my readings throughout all of these forums that there have been few issues noted with the incorporation of the Stage 1 and 2 add-ons. It seems the the track record of these systems, along with, what appears to be a well engineered engine, has caused few compatability issues or even emission issues.

Now maybe I need to read, again, and make certain of this information, but it seems to be a relatively low risk to install at least the Stage 1 system. The Stage 2 seems to also be a relatively low risk, too.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I will also continue my research in this area, too.

[ptgtcb]

I never mentioned warranty did I.

[SteelBlueGT]

azptcruiser, You are 100% correct IMHO, very little risk associated with either stage 1 or stage 2 upgrades! These are well engineered and designed systems that are obviously intended for street and strip use! These are not single purpose mods desingned only for competition!

[Culprat]

MACSTER,
I did not miss the point.

[Rolo]

quote:Originally posted by azptcruiser

I appreciate all of the information that everyone is providing throughout these forums as it relates to the turbo and stages. But it seems to me in all of my readings throughout all of these forums that there have been few issues noted with the incorporation of the Stage 1 and 2 add-ons. It seems the the track record of these systems, along with, what appears to be a well engineered engine, has caused few compatability issues or even emission issues.

Now maybe I need to read, again, and make certain of this information, but it seems to be a relatively low risk to install at least the Stage 1 system. The Stage 2 seems to also be a relatively low risk, too.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I will also continue my research in this area, too.

My Personal Experience As Of Today
Or: My Throwing The Dead Horse Into The Sea So We May Never Speak Of This Again And Quit Geting On 3Bar's Nerves

Since I have to take my PT in for a PCM swap as per TSB, I asked about having a Stage 1 kit installed instead if I purchased it from them. The service manager flat out told me "it will void your warranty". I explained the verbiage of the warranties (tactfully) and his explanation was that since the aftermarket computer controls pretty much everything, Chrysler will always point the finger at that, and you are SOL.

I refer to the case of "Theory v. Practise": there is "On Paper", and then there is "The Real World". (It is an old case, so I used the Queen's English spelling.) [8D]

I thanked him for being up-front, said I would pass on the Stage 1 (and future Stage 2) since it has 1800 miles on it and I need warranty work done already--parts were defective out-of-the box. (the ubiquitous valvetrain tappet-like noise). Six weeks, 1800 miles, and already needing service three times. Hardly impressive.

It is not the Mopar parts that I worry about, it is Chrysler's. There are a lot of parts, a lot that can go wrong. This is what comes with buying an American car; you get what you pay for. ( [8] <-- Harley Earl, heh) If you want reliability, buy a Honda. If you want the dealer/manufacturer to take care of you, buy German (but you'll pay for it). If you want it all, build it yourself.

I knew what I was buying, I bought an American economy car (that just happens to be one of the coolest cars on the road overall) because my portfolio/wealth building is more important to me than wheels (why I bought a Chrysler car and Nissan stock). For the same reason, I do not need a dealer playing games and picking my pocket. [}] I wish to keep the warranty intact, as it offsets the mediocre craftmanship/service. [)] 20 HP is not worth forfeiting that. (50 HP may be, though... [:0] )

I like performance, but the Chrysler cost of it is too high for me. That is my choice. We all have to make that choice. Pick one and go with it. [B)]

Yes, "it sucks!" and "They should....!" but, as someone wisely pointed out: this is not a perfect world ("love your neighbour as yourself..." yadda yadda...). Right/wrong: irrelevant--that is the way it is. No point in [xx(] over it.

As for me, right now engine-wise, I will just add a BOV for longevity--that should be a hard one to slough problems onto. As time goes on and my PT proves itself, and the resistance to more speed becomes futile, I will add to performance at risk to the warranty--a calculated risk. By then I will be better able to do my own work anyway. So...Stage 2 can take its time for all I care (easier to resist when it is not available! heh).

So...let us just continue to bounce good, productive (or even stupid and humourous) ideas around and not fall into the whiny pit (it is human nature--not directed at anyone).

Moving on...I have a suspension to replace and lighting to add an