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Balance shaft removal.

 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 27 Apr 2015, 06:08 pm
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Exclamation Balance shaft removal.

I had previously removed my balance shafts ,with the exception of the carrier in search of a noise which turned out to be a damaged transmission flex plate. Also repaired some striped out threads in the trans drain pain with "time serts ".They work better than helicoils. The time serts can be found on Amazon or Ebay. My drain pain was leaking and I wasted a lot of time and money on silicone gasket products.I bought a gasket (p/n-5011115 AA )from a local Chrysler dealer and no more leaks. I was thinking about purchasing a ATI (P/N 917469) Super Damper Pulley instead of reinstalling the shafts. What I need to know is the pulley better than the shafts for controlling the vibration ?? Replacing the pulley is faster but cost a lot more than replacing the chain.
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Old 28 Apr 2015, 12:04 am
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Default Re: Balance shaft removal.

You should be asking ATI this question.

Basically, The balance shaft assembly and the ATI damper do different functions or if you will engines behavoirs. The ATI will not substitue the removal of a balance shaft.
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Old 28 Apr 2015, 08:36 am
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Default Re: Balance shaft removal.

How bad is the vibration without the balance shaft?

On SRT4 forums, cutting the chain is often one of the first "performance" mods that the owners do. Most describe this as no big deal and report little of any increase in engine vibration. Of course, these are SRT4 owners we are talking about, so I am even more dubious of their judgement than I am of us PT owners.
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Old 28 Apr 2015, 08:42 am
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Default Re: Balance shaft removal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy_Cruiser View Post
How bad is the vibration without the balance shaft?

On SRT4 forums, cutting the chain is often one of the first "performance" mods that the owners do. Most describe this as no big deal and report little of any increase in engine vibration. Of course, these are SRT4 owners we are talking about, so I am even more dubious of their judgement than I am of us PT owners.
Ya, we used to burn witches until we found out it was just mold!lol

If there wasn't a good reason for them to be there. Look at all the money chrysler would have saved by leaving them out. That's why we don't have door lock cylinder on the right any more..
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Old 28 Apr 2015, 10:52 am
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Default Re: Balance shaft removal.

i have read that if you remove the balance shafts on a manual car, some cars will actually move with the clutch depressed if you put the car in gear and rev it up due to the increased harmonics causing the clutch to drag. i assume this would effect the PT more than usual due to the flywheel bolted to the flexplate and no input bearing setup. then again i don't know if your car is auto or stick. still.. you can find a good read about what i mean here: Keep Your Balance Shafts – Jacks Transmissions

Last edited by rob342; 28 Apr 2015 at 10:58 am.
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Old 28 Apr 2015, 12:18 pm
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Default Re: Balance shaft removal.

Soooo I guess Chrysler had nothing better to do then add 30 pounds to the engine and a couple dozen more parts.


I highly recommend that people actually ride in a car that is street driven that had the balance shaft removed before making comments or suggesting it may be alright to do?

What I found is that most doing the engine "damage" cutting the balance shaft chain or removing the complete balance shaft assembly, and then to save face simply reported that they felt no to little difference. It is a bit difficult to replace a cut chain on the balance shaft assembly when the engine is still in the car or re-install the removed assembly after the engine is it back into the engine compartment.

If the balance shaft assembly is complete removed there are also required modifications after the balance shaft assemblies removal.
It will net you about 30lbs pound in engine weight and maybe 2-6 hp? Maybe?

If building a Track car then by all means leave it out of the engine during the complete engine "performance " rebuild.
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Last edited by NitroPT; 28 Apr 2015 at 12:28 pm.
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Old 28 Apr 2015, 01:28 pm
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Default Re: Balance shaft removal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroPT View Post
Soooo I guess Chrysler had nothing better to do then add 30 pounds to the engine and a couple dozen more parts.


I highly recommend that people actually ride in a car that is street driven that had the balance shaft removed before making comments or suggesting it may be alright to do?

What I found is that most doing the engine "damage" cutting the balance shaft chain or removing the complete balance shaft assembly, and then to save face simply reported that they felt no to little difference. It is a bit difficult to replace a cut chain on the balance shaft assembly when the engine is still in the car or re-install the removed assembly after the engine is it back into the engine compartment.

If the balance shaft assembly is complete removed there are also required modifications after the balance shaft assemblies removal.
It will net you about 30lbs pound in engine weight and maybe 2-6 hp? Maybe?

If building a Track car then by all means leave it out of the engine during the complete engine "performance " rebuild.
Like I suspected, there doesn't appear to be any current folks on the forum that have done this even though it's very common among those wild and crazy SRT4 guys.

If you dig through the SRT4 and turbo Dodge forums, you will find that several of the "chain cutters" have gotten over a 100K miles out of their little Neons after forsaking the balance shaft. But as NitroPT suggested, reports of vibration are all over the board and are likely played down due to pride.

Many of the real "racers" that have rebuilt their engines report having the internals "balanced" so the loss of the balance shaft had much less impact. Others report the stock 2.4L will shake like a 4-cylinder Ford. That's pretty bad if you know what I mean.

Most of the SRT4 guys appear to just cut the chain and leave the balance shaft assembly in place. That's the easy method and nothing else is required. Those that remove the assembly have to plug the oil vain with a 1/4 inch set screw. And the more serious ones will add baffles to help take up the space in the oil pan. A different dip stick also appears to be required. But I'm not sure why since it just indicates level and not volume.

Removing the balance shaft seems to be very common in lots of little toy tuner car circles. My brother-in-law that is a graphic design artist for Verizon once removed the one from his turbo Eclipse. He said it made little or no difference in discernible vibration. But I always thought that car was shaky to begin with.

It would be neat if there was a current PT owner with this mod that could give us a first-hand report. How the engine vibrates in a Neon SRT4 may not be exactly the same experience in a PT.
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Old 28 Apr 2015, 02:02 pm
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Default Re: Balance shaft removal.

Todd there is more to the required mod than those you mentioned.

I personally know first hand what removing one will do to an engine. I am not going to get into this with anyone unless they are an engine builder as I am. And if you are than you would be supporting my coments.

This is a PT Cruiser forum not a damn SRT or Neon forum.

July of last year I had a customer that had bought a slightly modded Turbo PT of 85k miles. He had vibration issues. After changing his mounts and doing a complete electronic tune up the vibration was still there. I did a compression test as well a leak down. I meticulously check ALL the sensors by removing them and electrically testing them. The intake system was completely removed and cleaned. I did a back pressure check of the exhaust system. Nothing??? After all that work mostly for free I could not get the engine to idle smooth.

So I started to talk to him about what the owner had said was done. Well what do you know the owner cut the balance shaft chain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The previous owner also owned several Neon in various state of condition repair and mods.

So a few labor hours later a new water pump timing chain and BALANCE SHAFT CHAIN installed. The PT idles like a Cadillac, well not that smooth but better then most PTs with less miles.


Why are we talking about this again? Oh ya because a few fools on a SRT and Noen forum thought it was a "kool" engine mod!

Really I hate when I need to debate things with friends and fellow forum members when there is no basic topic experience or reference other then internet forums. Try this....contact a local PERFORMANCE Engine Machine shop and talk to them about cutting or removing a balance shaft chain or assembly on a factory engine and see what they tell you.

Here is how I see it... I tell you the lit match has a flame that will burn you so don't touch you will get burned! The internet has information that states it is alright to touch although hot it may not burn you is you only touch it quickly.
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Last edited by NitroPT; 28 Apr 2015 at 02:06 pm.
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Old 28 Apr 2015, 02:41 pm
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Default Re: Balance shaft removal.

you guys make me want to cut the chain on my car just to see how it feels. i mean what the hell i may as well. next stop is the scrap yard.

nitro is there still a need for me to mail in the injectors? i left it together so the motor didnt have openings in it before i pulled it to sell. now the kid doesnt want the motor anymore and its warm enough for me to strip stuff off. i found myself bored and drinking the other day, contemplating the most fun use for the passenger side air bag

nitro i may be mistaken, but i think this dumb mod actually originated with the honda crowd. http://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude-...tively-503372/ and rightfully so. a used 30k mile jdm engine costs a whopping $2-400. i purchased 5 or 6 myself.

Last edited by rob342; 28 Apr 2015 at 02:48 pm.
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Old 28 Apr 2015, 03:39 pm
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Default Re: Balance shaft removal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroPT View Post
Really I hate when I need to debate things with friends and fellow forum members when there is no basic topic experience or reference other then internet forums. Try this....contact a local PERFORMANCE Engine Machine shop and talk to them about cutting or removing a balance shaft chain or assembly on a factory engine and see what they tell you.
This is no debate. It's just a friendly conversation about an very applicable topic. There is no controversy indented. It's just a good thing to discuss. And of course, you know as well as I that the wealth of misinformation available in some performance and machine shops is often comparable to what we find on internet forums. Here where I live, pure ignorance often abounds with no one such as yourself to call foul. That's one of the reasons conversations like this among friends are valuable.

And yes, if I had an old beater PT, cutting the chain might seem really temping about now. A little more rumble and vibration in a otherwise ragged NA PT might be a good thing. I've found it's often more important to give the impression of being able to go fast rather than actually going fast.
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