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Subwoofers: is bigger better??

 
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03 Aug 2011, 01:25 am
Kawizx9r's Avatar
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Default Re: Subwoofers: is bigger better??

You can't base everything off sheer numbers.

If we play the numbers game, with a short read anyone can easily point out and say "this sub is better because it's only $X, uses X amount of space, and takes X much power!"

Aside from power differences, physical dimensions, and power ratings, how do they compare in terms of sound quality?

Looks can be very deceiving, and this can be said with numbers.

It's why I used my tube-based setup as an example. It will best anything out of any big box store. It wasn't expensive either.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03 Aug 2011, 01:28 am
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Default Re: Subwoofers: is bigger better??

It's a shame really;

that you guys can't say.

"Serg, that is a bad ass subwoofer; It's very powerful, it's very inexpensive; it takes up very little room; and that would be a great recommendation to someone new into the subwoofer world"

My only goal on here is to help people.

If you want to start a discussion that focuses on subwoofers asking the question "is bigger better" and I show something that blows your argument out the water, like a smaller sub enclosure, BIGGER POWER 200% more actually, , and bigger savings! $160.00 less, if you were to buy the 2 sundowns, they would cost 160% more, take up 400% more room to give equal RMS watts. and get ZERO respect; that is BS

If one or both of you have to much pride; ego; or whatever, that is one thing.


(what I am about to say sounds like my prom date)

But saying this isn't the best bang; in the tightest space, for the cheapest price isn't fair to the 100s of others that will read this thread.

It way out performs the sundown. It's time to SHED DAY LIGHT on the truth. on the CEA certified numbers.

I don't really care about you two Jokers; I want the truth to be heard to the 100's or several hundreds that will read this in the upcoming days, weeks and months.

I am here to help PEOPLE.

Not debate 1+ 1 = 2 vs your position; that 1 + 1 = 84.48 (which it doesn't)

it's really really a shame you can't say this subs enclosure is smaller, bigger saving in the pocket; and bigger performance. It's shame not only to yourselves; but the the rest of the people that must read your threads, written by people that can't admit 1 + 1 = 2.

Is the world flat too?

Last edited by SergeantPtCruiser; 03 Aug 2011 at 01:49 am.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03 Aug 2011, 03:35 am
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Default Re: Subwoofers: is bigger better??

I have read all this and studied it big time. Being as I love to hear cars pass me or at a light and my car is shaken with nothing but a mindless thump thump thump. I decided I must add my effort to passing on the thump thump thump to other unaware drivers. I am going to add mine but build it bigger and badder designed to shatter windows from 50 feet.
On a trailer I will have a 4 foot sub and a generator to give the amp power of at least 50 thousand RMS. Yep , That will show them. And I can even carry my milk back there and have butter by the time I get home !

But wait, that will hurt my gas mileage pulling that. OK never mind I will stay with my stock system and enjoy the 60-80 music that needs no thump and I can still hear emergency vehicles and any odd noises that may pop up in the car. Heck I will even be able to talk with the passenger !

My point, bigger is not better, it is what the individual defines as better for himself. Too much bass for me sucks. I want to hear the actual music from when it was music and had a melody and no profanity. Some want the huge box to show off ( mine is bigger than yours ) some want a lower profile. As I think on it most music does not need that much more bass other that the war of 1812 overture. ( It was music back in the old days when they had high piccolos and flutes and delicate strings to hear. ) Perhaps a system design with a better overall spread for the quality of music would be a better use of the effort of speaker and amp design.

Yes there are a few that will want my design for the mega power trailer, but often it is they want to boost the audio level enough to hear over the wind noise of an open top or open roof. That only requires a slightly stronger speaker and a small amp and simple equalizer.

It is great to have the info on BIG BIG BIG, but why not use that knowledge to also pass on info for dealing with replacing the stock speakers, maybe add a small amp ( SMALL i said ) and an inexpensive equalizer to be a bit more low profile.

In case my point is missed, being as a little chrome is better then a HUGE chrome job would be best, so just take your cruiser to a shop and have them dip chrome the whole thing? Car body engine seats windows and all !

For some, more and smaller bass units is what they like, for others one speaker on a trailer is for them.
Heck way back one I knew I guy that mounted bass under the passenger seat to vibrate the seat. His idea was that it excited the girls on a date.
To each his own.


This may piss off a few people but heck you guys have good knowledge but lets also consider the old farts here ( me ) that would like quality with a little boost over earthquakes. Design a small sweet system for the old farts and you will be praised and blessed.
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Last edited by GhostFlyer; 03 Aug 2011 at 03:45 am.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03 Aug 2011, 06:18 am
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Default Re: Subwoofers: is bigger better??

Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantPtCruiser View Post
Tell you the truth; I don't even care enough about your BS to read this novel
I asked you to keep this an adult debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantPtCruiser View Post
I gave a CLEAR distinction between 2 vs. 1 in a cost; RMS, and space analysis.

2 x 8" sundown subwoofer vs. 1 10" pioneer subwoofer.

The pioneer takes up 1/2 the cubic feet; costs 35% less; and is 200% more powerful.

2 8" sundown would take up 1.6 cubic feet, and 800 RMS and cost at lest $260.
1 10" Pioneer would take up .35 cubic feet (400% less) with the equal RMS; and cost $100 (160% less).

It's really 2nd grade math.

Here is a remedial lesson in the basics of math.

so K9; if your saying I am only advocating for 15" subwoofers; you are straight up wrong.

The argument is if BIGGER IS BETTER. I gave an example of a subwoofer that is 1/2 as SMALL in enclosure space; 160% SMALLER in the POCKET, with twice as KICK ASS.


that is twice the power; 1/2 the space, and less 160% less money.


hahaha


I am glad to see the Joker and the Riddler back at it again.

you guys are more than entertaining


PM ME IF YOU NEED SOME Tutoring.

Numbers don't lie.

these are apples to apples, because they are both CEA approved equipment



400 + 400 = what? 400? no sorry; it's 800.


$100 + 0 = what? $260? nooooo it's $100

ok next one.

$135 + $135 = what? alot correct; but how much $270, awesome!

last one.

.6 cubic feet + .6 cubic equals what? a foot in the but? nooo, 1.2 cubic feet. right!


OK I LIED

.35 cubic feet + 0 = huuuuumm, that's a tough one. = .35 cubic feet.[/B][/I][/SIZE]
This is why you should have read my post saying "the GOAL is the most important factor in a build. You are comparing the Pioneer's smallest reccomended enclosure to Sundown's Maximum reccomended. You are also comparing the lowest price you can find on the pioneer to the standard price on the Sundown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantPtCruiser View Post
It's a shame really;

that you guys can't say.

"Serg, that is a bad ass subwoofer; It's very powerful, it's very inexpensive; it takes up very little room; and that would be a great recommendation to someone new into the subwoofer world"

My only goal on here is to help people.

If you want to start a discussion that focuses on subwoofers asking the question "is bigger better" and I show something that blows your argument out the water, like a smaller sub enclosure, BIGGER POWER 200% more actually, , and bigger savings! $160.00 less, if you were to buy the 2 sundowns, they would cost 160% more, take up 400% more room to give equal RMS watts. and get ZERO respect; that is BS

If one or both of you have to much pride; ego; or whatever, that is one thing.


(what I am about to say sounds like my prom date)

But saying this isn't the best bang; in the tightest space, for the cheapest price isn't fair to the 100s of others that will read this thread.

It way out performs the sundown. It's time to SHED DAY LIGHT on the truth. on the CEA certified numbers.

I don't really care about you two Jokers; I want the truth to be heard to the 100's or several hundreds that will read this in the upcoming days, weeks and months.

I am here to help PEOPLE.

Not debate 1+ 1 = 2 vs your position; that 1 + 1 = 84.48 (which it doesn't)

it's really really a shame you can't say this subs enclosure is smaller, bigger saving in the pocket; and bigger performance. It's shame not only to yourselves; but the the rest of the people that must read your threads, written by people that can't admit 1 + 1 = 2.

Is the world flat too?
You are not getting the reason behind this thread. It is to show people to really consider all options when thinking about a system build and that big results can be had from smaller speakers in less space than the typically sought after 12" and 15" subs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostFlyer View Post
This may piss off a few people but heck you guys have good knowledge but lets also consider the old farts here ( me ) that would like quality with a little boost over earthquakes. Design a small sweet system for the old farts and you will be praised and blessed.
This was the idea behind this thread. You don't need big. Heck, you don't even NEED loud. You CAN easily have a great sounding system, while taking up little space.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03 Aug 2011, 06:27 am
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Default Re: Subwoofers: is bigger better??

Ok, now that I tried to comment on all the excess, let's try to get this back on topic.

Sgt., please tell us why you believe RMS is the most important and that reccomended enclosure is 2nd most important.

Kawi kinda touched on another thing a lot of people don't consider when looking for a new sub. That is all of the other thiele and small parameter numbers. I'm not an expert in this area but I do know the sensitivity and 1watt@1meter numbers are going to give you a good idea of how efficient a speaker is going to be. Perhaps Kawi can shead some light on this subjuct for us all.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03 Aug 2011, 01:54 pm
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Default Re: Subwoofers: is bigger better??

Hey low; I will be the bigger man.

Everything stated above is what i stand behind; and I will Just Be the Bigger Man,

I am not going to debate with you; it's not really educational or productive when simple second grade math is ignored.

1 + 1 = 2.

You asking if bigger is better.

Your example was a thin crust pizza; with little cheese; in a big box; for alot of money.

I showed a thicker pizza; with more cheese, better quality ingredients; that fits in a smaller box; and costs less.

I showed something that is twice as powerful; 400 vs 800 RMS

Something that takes up less room .35 cubic feet vs. .60 cubic feet

And something that is cheaper. $100 vs. $135.

Bigger Savings is better. Bigger Performance is better; and Less Space is Better.

I am done with you Brah;

DONE
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 03 Aug 2011, 05:22 pm
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Default Re: Subwoofers: is bigger better??

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostFlyer View Post
Heck way back one I knew I guy that mounted bass under the passenger seat to vibrate the seat. His idea was that it excited the girls on a date.
<off topic>
Funny you metion that but i sometimes mount transducers (often called bass shakers) under seating in home theater setups for customers. It simply viberates the seat and/or floor and your brain thinks you have huge subs. Very effective and they always get the dropped jaw and smile response when they feel them the first time.

You can even put these in car applications if you want simulated bass.
<back on topic....>
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 03 Aug 2011, 06:30 pm
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Default Re: Subwoofers: is bigger better??

Thanks xwing for trying to get this back on track.

I'm sorry I am not knowledgeable enough to explain why the the T&S parameters might need to be looked at when shopping for a sub.

So, how about this- When would bigger be better? Would you want a bigger woofer if you wanted to play lower frequencies? What factors would push someone to purchase a larger sub over the smaller ones?

*These are not rhetorical questions. I am actually asking questions that I can't come up with absolute answers to. Hopefully some of you guys with some deeper insight into this field can answer.*
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 03 Aug 2011, 06:47 pm
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Default Re: Subwoofers: is bigger better??

Quote:
Originally Posted by xwing777 View Post
<off topic>
Funny you metion that but i sometimes mount transducers (often called bass shakers) under seating in home theater setups for customers. It simply viberates the seat and/or floor and your brain thinks you have huge subs. Very effective and they always get the dropped jaw and smile response when they feel them the first time.

You can even put these in car applications if you want simulated bass.
<back on topic....>
<Off topic>
That's freaking awesome
<on topic>
lol
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 03 Aug 2011, 07:14 pm
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Default Re: Subwoofers: is bigger better??

All things being the same, the bigger the sub, the lower the frequency it can go but at the same time the less accurate as it is slower as well.

Power capacity is usually more in larger subs because the voice coils are larger and bigger wire wounds.

You will also notice that the cheaper subs have very little info regarding specs except recomended box size and frequency response. Sensitivity specs tell a lot on how efficient a sub uses the power its given. There are subs that can use very little power and sound better than the same size sub using double the amount with everything else being the same specs.




The actual definitions below are the Thiele-Small Parameters (sourced from: Home | Decibel Car Audio the SPL Knowledgebase).

B: Magnetic flux density in gap, in Tesla-meters (TM)

BL: The magnetic strength of the motor structure.

C: Propagation velocity of sound at STP, approx. 342 m/s

Cas: Acoustical equivalent of Cms

Cmes: The electrical capacitive equivalent of Mms, in farads

Cms: The driver's mechanical compliance (reciprocal of stiffness), in m/N

D: Effective diameter of driver, in meters

F3: -3 dB cutoff frequency, in Hz

Fb: Enclosure resonance (usually for bass reflex systems), in Hz

Fc: System resonance (usually for sealed box systems), in Hz

Fs: Driver free air resonance, in Hz. This is the point at which driver impedance is maximum.

L: length of wire immersed in magnetic field, in meters

Lces: The electrical inductive equivalent of Cms, in henries

L: Length of wire immersed in magnetic field, in meters

Ms: The total moving mass of the loudspeaker cone.

Mmd: Diaphram mass, in grams

Mms: The driver's effective mechanical mass (including air load), in kg

n0: The reference efficiency of the system (eta sub 0) dimensionless, usually expressed as %

p: (rho) Density of air at STP 1.18 kg/m^3

Pa: Acoustical power

Pe: Electrical power

Q: The relative damping of a loudspeaker

Qa: The system's Q at Fb, due to absorption losses; dimensionless

Qec: The system's Q at resonance (Fc), due to electrical losses; dimensionless

Qes: The driver's Q at resonance (Fs), due to electrical losses; dimensionless

Ql: The system's Q at Fb, due to leakage losses; dimensionless

Qmc: The system's Q at resonance (Fc), due to mechanical losses; dimensionless

Qms: The driver's Q at resonance (Fs), due to mechanical losses; dimensionless

Qp: The system's Q at Fb, due to port losses (turbulence, viscousity, etc.); dimensionless

Qtc: The system's Q at resonance (Fc), due to all losses; dimensionless

Qts: The driver's Q at resonance (Fs), due to all losses; dimensionless

R: Ripple, in dB

Ras: Acoustical equivalent of Rms

Res: The electrical resistive equivalent of Rms, in ohms

Revc: DC voice coil resistance, in ohms

Rg: Amplifier source resistance (includes leads, crossover, etc.), in ohms

Rms: The driver's mechanical losses, in kg/s

Sd: Effective piston radiating area of driver, in square meters

SPLo: Sound Pressure Level, usually measured at 1 watt, at 1 meter in front of the loudspeaker

Vas: "Equivalent volume of compliance", this is a volume of air whose compliance is the same as a driver's acoustical compliance Cms (q.v.), in cubic meters

Vd: Maximum linear volume of displacement of the driver (product of Sd times Xmax), in cubic meters.

Xmax: Maximum peak linear excursion of driver, in centimeters.
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