What's Up ???????

[Culprat]

Has anyone had a problem with gas leaks?

[Dalite]

While looking at injectors in the Summit Racing catalog, I see a mention of a "vapor cap" on some of the ones they list. Could this possibly be the equivalent of the piece that is not included on the new injector?

I have no idea if that is what the cover is called, or if that is the duty that it performs.

When (and if) my Stage I kit comes in, I will try to take some pics of both the old and new for comparison.

We have some forum members here that have have a history with some major tuners due to current and past projects. Maybe we will be able to get an opinion from someone that does this sort of thing for a living.

Here is Dodgetweaker's explanation from the SRT-4 forum that was mentioned earlier in this thread:

quote:
The 2003 injectors are made by Bosch and the Stage 1 injectors are made by Siemens. It is simply a case of "different strokes for different folks". Since the Stage 1 is the same injector as the 2004 turbo cars, DCX has conducted extensive durability testing on the injectors. There is no need for worry.

The Stage I owners are the most likely group to provide any extensive beta testing of this injector in a dynamic application. As a group, they are in the process of beta testing it now. Long time durability results can only be found after long-term operation has been experienced. The more involved in the testing, the more accurate the testing will be.

Based on the comments of those who have already installed Stage I, there is no question on my mind of the performance gains, or the functionality of the new injectors. However, in looking down the road, the difference in the appearance of the new injectors and their long term reliability should be considered as a legitimate concern, no matter who brings the point up for consideration.

It is hard to determine where the greatest tragic flaw lies. Would it be worse to see one of the "Big 3" automakers self-destruct due to substandard business practices, or would it be worse for their loyal customer base to suspect them of substandard practices?

The first instance has not come to pass. They are a bit down in the market, and many would no longer consider them to be an American Car maker. However, they are still very much in in the game.

The second incidence would require a reason for their customer base to build a level of dis-satisfaction into a level of distrust. This doesn't happen without some kind of provocation.

I feel that the distrust aspect is the most tragic of the 2 possibilities. That (and a buck) may get you a cup of coffee, and is only an opinion. It is an opinion held by a member of a family of 3 (All adults over 50 years of age) who have all bought their current car (Chrylser) new. For 2 of the family members, their previous new car purchase was from Chrysler as well; and was consecutive..

[Kirby]

One of the major problems here is execution. When MP changes things as with this kit, and ther is no explaination, MP should expect questions. I know that there are a lot of people that just want to trust everything that comes down the pike and put down anyone that might raise a question (if there's a problem I don't want to know about it), but I am concerned that rather than find facts, some people want to debate only their opinion and ask anyone with a different point of view to shut up.
The whole purpose of this site is to talk about all sides of issues concerning our PT Cruisers, not to wave the MP banner or to shout down anyone's differing opinion. I don't know how many times that individuals have said that they will never read my post again. So what?
If you just want to hear yourself, get a tape recorder and a good mirror.

For PT Dave,
Sorry, I will never "be quiet" or "give it up", and "substantive proof" is all I have ever been asking for. Hopefully someone or anyone questioning things is our one hedge on NO WARRANTY items. The DCX engineers are not GOD, they screw up too, just like you and I. I think that we should be skeptical of every part(unwarranted as they are) until each has proven it's worth and reliability.

I didn't hear a word about any of the DC flag wavers heading up to New Jersey to help out a PT owner that was in real trouble!!

[PT-Dave]

quote:Originally posted by Kirby

One of the major problems here is execution. When MP changes things as with this kit, and ther is no explaination, MP should expect questions. I know that there are a lot of people that just want to trust everything that comes down the pike and put down anyone that might raise a question (if there's a problem I don't want to know about it), but I am concerned that rather than find facts, some people want to debate only their opinion and ask anyone with a different point of view to shut up.
The whole purpose of this site is to talk about all sides of issues concerning our PT Cruisers, not to wave the MP banner or to shout down anyone's differing opinion. I don't know how many times that individuals have said that they will never read my post again. So what?
If you just want to hear yourself, get a tape recorder and a good mirror.

For PT Dave,
Sorry, I will never "be quiet" or "give it up", and "substantive proof" is all I have ever been asking for. Hopefully someone or anyone questioning things is our one hedge on NO WARRANTY items. The DCX engineers are not GOD, they screw up too, just like you and I. I think that we should be skeptical of every part(unwarranted as they are) until each has proven it's worth and reliability.

I didn't hear a word about any of the DC flag wavers heading up to New Jersey to help out a PT owner that was in real trouble!!

Kirby,

I am not putting you down or anyone else, for that matter, who questions a delivered product or a warranty statement. I am only addressing the intensity of the protests. To state a question or imply a problem is one thing, but to carry on to the extent that you sometimes do, is not necessary, nor warranted. I do not implicitly trust corporations any more than anyone else, but I do have to concede that their track record at producing automobiles is better than our "gut feelings" on the subject. The warranty issue is really a dead horse. They are not going to change it because we scream and holler. Again, if the conditions are not right for you, then by all means do not purchase the Stage I kit.

More to the subject now. Neither you nor I can be classified as true automotive experts, right? I presented my observations on the "missing" plastic ring. I have not be able to find any literature that states the ring in question is a "protective thermal cap". If I have overlooked something, please enlighten me. If you can or wish to do so, please address the individual issues I brought up in my previous post. I am using the only tool I have at my disposal now, my common sense. Explain the concept of how a plastic ring around the tip of the injector can disperse heat. Explain how the space taken by the plastic ring, when not present, can be then taken up by the tip of the injector. Explain how, when the injector is clipped to the fuel rail, it can be pulled down by gravity to make the metal to metal contact. If you can dispel my logic and simply physics, then I will gladly jump on your band wagon. Heck, I'll even lead it!

Comments?

[Kirby]

Mopar Performance is now trying to develop a track record (this is a BRAND NEW group of people who have distanced themselves greatly from mother DCX).

The WARRANTY issue will NEVER be dead!!! (If you don't need one, just send yours back to DCX, they will gladly cancel it!)

These silly little caps didn't just happen, they have been part and parcel of the design of injectors for years. The purpose of a non metal barrier between two metal pieces should be self evident to your "common sense", metal to metal contact facilitates conductive heat transferr and wear.(Please read my previous post from a "True Automotive Expert" in the Injector field.)

It's not my burden to prove that I'm right, on the contrary it is up to Mopar Performance (not you) to prove to every purchaser of the Stage I kits that there is NO LONG TERM PROBLEM here because, they have chosen NOT TO STAND BEHIND THEIR PRODUCTS!!

Lastly, please re-read your first post with perspective, my take was that your goal was in fact to "put me down". Can I remind you of a few phrases like "Keep them (opinions)your to yourself" and "be quiet".

I have posted a few FACTS about what I discovered when working with the Stage 1 product. I asked DCX and others to contribute, and I certainly don't want anyone to "KEEP THEIR OPINIONS TO THEMSELVES".

Unlike some, I do not want to "WIN" this topic, I will be perfectly happy if I am dead wrong, as long as we find the truth!! (Also, then I won't have to re do Bob's excellent Stage 1 install.)[?]

[TripleJackInGA]

We understand you don't want to 'win' kirby, but on more than one occasion you seem to simply want to have something to go on, and on, and on, and on, and on about.

[PT-Dave]

quote:Originally posted by Kirby

...snip...
These silly little caps didn't just happen, they have been part and parcel of the design of injectors for years. The purpose of a non metal barrier between two metal pieces should be self evident to your "common sense", metal to metal contact facilitates conductive heat transferr and wear.(Please read my previous post from a "True Automotive Expert" in the Injector field.)

...snip...

Lastly, please re-read your first post with perspective, my take was that your goal was in fact to "put me down". Can I remind you of a few phrases like "Keep them (opinions)your to yourself" and "be quiet".

I have posted a few FACTS about what I discovered when working with the Stage 1 product. I asked DCX and others to contribute, and I certainly don't want anyone to "KEEP THEIR OPINIONS TO THEMSELVES".

Kirby, onca again we seem to agree to disagree. I did read (and re-read) the post from your injector expert, and no mention was made about the so-called thermal protective caps. Only why injectors tend to fail in long term use. The non-metal barrier is the SEAL! If the seal was not there, we would have a vacuum leak that would play havoc with the performance. So far you have stated no FACTS, only speculation as to the intended purpose of these plastic rings. Your interpretation, not mine. Again, if there is room for the plastic rings, then without them, there is even MORE room for the tip. I have attempted to "move or wiggle" the injectors when installed, and the movement could only be measured in microns. There is just no appreciable slack present. Therefore, the injector tip cannot make metal to metal contact. Period. Case closed.

Secondly, I am not putting you down. To do so would not be couth. I am only trying to put forth opposing logic for the statements that you have declared to be fact. Since you are the one calling "wolf", then produce the wolf. That is all I am asking for, and so far, you have not delivered. Show me something that labels these rings and I will concede your argument. Until then, I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

Lastly, if you are stating your opinion, then be all means continue. However, you are stating as fact that which you cannot prove. You seem to be attempting to rile the ranks with your theories, and I guess, because of your vocal nature and superior number of posts, most will believe. I choose not to, but only because I cannot be dissuaded by theories, only facts. Show me!

[Kirby]

Again, it's not up to me to show you anything more than the facts that I discovered installing the Stage 1.

Fact: The new injectors did not have the jet, or pintle, or nose protector cap as the Original Equipment did.

Fact: No mention of this was either in the preface or the instructions.

Fact: This tip definitely made metal to metal contact when installed.

Fact: The injectors being in an unauthorised upgrade, if they fail and cause dammage, the dealer has NO responsibility to fix that damage.

What Mopar Performance does with this I cannot control, but I would want to know that this potential problem exhisted (and maybe an answer) before I kissed off my $400 and possibly my warranty.
(Or do we keep it as our little secret, only to be mentioned AFTER something happens - and become an "I told you so squad".)

[Kirby]

Now, opinion:
I am more than a little dismayed by posters that seem to have more than a passing knowlege about the pieces and parts to our PTs that use this knowlege like a battering ram to squash any and all questions.
Wouldn't it be a little more civil to first of all let people know who you are, and where your info is coming from. Possibly to use this knowlege to help all of us understand our PTs a little better.

[TripleJackInGA]

Exactly what are the pintles coming into contact with ? I must have missed something earlier on.