STAGE I SLOWER????!!!!!

[lip]

Dalite:
I second the opinion of macster.
Obviously there is more history to your post than I know of as I am a relatively new PT GT owner (and subscriber to this forum). Do you have an "interest" other than personal in the vehicle computer aftermarket business? Your knowledgable post leads me to believe you are not the average do it yourself car "hack".
I am thoroughly "overjoyed" to have people like you around to help us "non-car techies" out.
You guys are truly doing a great service for the rest of us!
Keep it up!!!
LIP

[3BarBoost]

Now this is an interesting subject. Dalite has several good points, and I can address several of them. The Stage 1 controller is an NGC3 module, common with all the 04 Turbos. It is however a different software set, specifially for MPP. And we don't let the dealers flash it for the very reason you said, lest it become a free upgrade. Don't know who told you different, sorry you were misled. Also note that there was no CARB certification (which may change), which may tell you something about the OBD and it's pickyness with respect to additional hardware modifications beyond stock. Not to say that it wouldn't pass a sniffer with the aftertreatment in place (and I think several have already tried successfully), just that there are other items in the regulation besides passing a sniffer.

As to how much we are required by the EPA to reveal how our code works is another story. That's propietary just like any other kind of software, and we don't have to reveal source code if we don't want to. Self-diagnostics is not the same as core engine functions, the former of which the EPA is really interested in.

Please keep up on this subject. I can't talk about certain things, and you can guess what kind of things are proprietary.

[Dalite]

quote:Originally posted by lip

Dalite:
I second the opinion of macster.
Obviously there is more history to your post than I know of as I am a relatively new PT GT owner (and subscriber to this forum). Do you have an "interest" other than personal in the vehicle computer aftermarket business? Your knowledgable post leads me to believe you are not the average do it yourself car "hack".
I am thoroughly "overjoyed" to have people like you around to help us "non-car techies" out.
You guys are truly doing a great service for the rest of us!
Keep it up!!!
LIP

Lip and Macster,

I am just a middle-aged guy who apparently has too much tiome on his hands. Seriously, I am intrigued with what I don't understand. The way that the PCM is the heart of all things got my attention. Here is a car that you couldn't set the timing, adjust the mixture, check the dwell of the injector duty cycle; anything that has always been associated with tuning a car in the past. The PCM does it all for you. I also know that this didn't happen overnight. I just lost contact with automotive innovations for about 20 years, and even through the ownership of my 2002 PT.

I read the forums and followed how Bob Stockum, Ant, MX5, and others fought to install turbo chargers and superchargerson their 2001 and 2002 PTs. Bob Stockum took it further than anyone else that I could imagine in his devotion to the project, and I don't mean to slight any one else when I say that. I read, but didn't get involved, as it was out of my league, and I was hoping for that turbo GT to come out in the near future....

I didn't become fully interested until I drove my GT off the lot for the first time as an owner. The boost cutback in first, noticable even without a boost gauge, the discussions of the first manual boost controllers, the gradual decrease in performance I got after the initial spike when I instaled a boost controller. All of these things made me wonder why. That is how I became interested in the PCM; interested enough to get a Service Manual CD and a set of Diagnostic manuals for the 2003 model year PT. The more that I read, the more I became aware that I didn't know. I have been trying to fill those gaps; the ones that fall between what questions I have, and the information that is publically available. It is just a curse that I deal with. I was the same way about cellular phones when they came out, satellite communications via Ham radio, VHF and UHF weak signal operation; anything that there was little info available on, I had to dive into. It is the pursuit of a challenge that make us the best person we can be. Of course, I do slip up and fall on my face sometimes; usually because I am trying to get a foot out of my mouth - one of my own.

Thanks for the kind words. I hope I don't lead anyone astray. I have been wrong in some of my interpretations of the material, and I do try to correct myself when I find a fallacy. However, I am certainly not perfect and am prone to go off on wild tangents from time to time that are entirely unproductive.

Also, it is great to have some representation from the folks that brought us the cruiser; their presence on the forum is a valuable commodity.

Cruise On...

[Dalite]

quote:Originally posted by 3BarBoost

Now this is an interesting subject. Dalite has several good points, and I can address several of them. The Stage 1 controller is an NGC3 module, common with all the 04 Turbos. It is however a different software set, specifially for MPP. And we don't let the dealers flash it for the very reason you said, lest it become a free upgrade. Don't know who told you different, sorry you were misled. Also note that there was no CARB certification (which may change), which may tell you something about the OBD and it's pickyness with respect to additional hardware modifications beyond stock. Not to say that it wouldn't pass a sniffer with the aftertreatment in place (and I think several have already tried successfully), just that there are other items in the regulation besides passing a sniffer.

As to how much we are required by the EPA to reveal how our code works is another story. That's propietary just like any other kind of software, and we don't have to reveal source code if we don't want to. Self-diagnostics is not the same as core engine functions, the former of which the EPA is really interested in.

Please keep up on this subject. I can't talk about certain things, and you can guess what kind of things are proprietary.

First, let me say that I do appreciate your candor. It is good for all of us on the forum to get a chance to wade through the rumors and get to the meat of the issues.

I had suspected that the dealer could physically do the flash, but it would cross over intellectual property/rights boundaries, and not be allowed.

Here is where UniqTwin / TurboG told me that it wasn't possible for the dealer to flash the Stage I software in the Stock 2004 PCM:

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/show...193#post183193

To her credit, she is one sharp cookie, and she was probably saying the same thing, but in far less words. It was probably mere coincidental that it followed one of my posts concerning the similarities between the Stage I PCM and the stock 2004 one. It is good to at least put that theory aside, and to be able to understand the reasoning behind it. I can understand that and respect it...

I have followed the thread where Stage I passed the smog check; both the data link and the probe. OBDIII will do away with the smog check in favor of a wireless link that will pick up the current level of compliance of a car as it passes under a transponder. I think the theoretical traffic load was something like 100 cars passing by at 50+ MPH (But I could be wrong).

Since the OBD system is based on emission compliance, it would already have a record of what is coming out the tailpipe, a far more accurate one. NOX is a percentage of misfire; the PCM can not only tell the overall percentage; it can tell the percentage of each cylinder, and a basic duty cycle of each within that percentage.

For each offending gas or pollution level that leaves the tailpipe, the reason it exists is stored in the PCM. OBDIII would simply mail a letter of non-compliance to the name associated with the VIN number that is transmited along with the OBD info. After a specified period allowed for repair, if that VIN shows up out of compliance again, a fine comes in the mail.

Personally, I don't like the privacy intrusiveness of the OBDIII proposal, but it does go far in demonstrating the level of detail that the current OBDII is capable of reporting.

I followed BJ@DCX.COMs forwarded post on the SRT-4 forum about the pending CARB approval, as well as the rewriting of the MPP Warranty. It is all good.

On the EPA and the code, not what I was referring to. It is a SAE standard, EPA is involved, but it covers the requirement that the diag link be made standard so it will allow a universal API to access it for both data logging and flash

[Ptturbine]

I think you are way of the original thread as well. But it still is an interesting topic(a bit). If the pcm works when we plug it in so be it if it doesn't we have reason to worry. Until we can see how they work via a laptop, who really cares? What will this do for YOU? I think nothing.....At any rate....Of course the dealer CAN'T flash a 2004 or a 2003 controller with the STAGE I!!!!! We don't have the software! Who on earth came up with that idea?

[Adman]

Dalite...Geeeeezzzz! I didnt realize your brain was so huge.
Always enjoy your post! Thanks for taking the time to share.
Matthew

[dentator]

quote:Originally posted by Ptturbine

I think you are way of the original thread as well. But it still is an interesting topic(a bit). If the pcm works when we plug it in so be it if it doesn't we have reason to worry. Until we can see how they work via a laptop, who really cares? What will this do for YOU? I think nothing.....At any rate....Of course the dealer CAN'T flash a 2004 or a 2003 controller with the STAGE I!!!!! We don't have the software! Who on earth came up with that idea?

[dentator]

Hello Ptturbine,
I own a 03PTGT and have just ordered the stage 1 kit for my car.
After reading your posts I am wondering if it was a worthwhile investment. Also on order is a Greddy profec 2 boost controller.
The GT is my work truck and will likely never see the track so a low ET is not my goal, better street performance is.
I have replaced the stock crome rims and tires with new Adventi's and 225 r45 17 tires which have made a world of difference in the handling. I am waiting till next spring before lowering the springs.

Was the stage 2 a waste of money?

Originally posted by Ptturbine[/i]

Hi all, This is my first post here. I have however been reading most topics and posts by others. I work at a Chrysler dealer and have been a licensed tech for over 10 years. I have built race engines for many people including Mercury Marine, and numerous drag racers. I have put UNPARALLED effort and time into my '03 Pt GT. ALL specs are CONFIRMED via chassis dyno or dragstrip. Stock this car went a best of 15.80 @ 85 Mph. With the addition of a Greddy Profec B set at 17.5psi, a best time of 14.74 @ 93 Mph was attained. Note my car has a MSD DIS 4 system with custom from MSD ignition adapters and a Msd Boost Timing Master with fuel adder. This system allows me to plot fuel and ignition curves with a laptop.(To allow for poor fuel, traction, etc.) I have recently also installed a Snow performance methanol/water injection kit, however the gains are not worth mentioning....yet! Next time at the track I changed only the air box, which was removed and a a ram air duct was installed in place of the left headlamp assy and used 110 octane racing fuel. These changes alone netted me a low et of all time-14.450 @ 96 Mph. NO TRICKS or gimmicks! I rec'd my Stage I and BOV last Thurs. Installation was simple(of course), This kit feels exceptional on the street, however the best E.T. with the stage I pcm was a disappointing 14.84. Holding over 20 psi proved to be a simple task, but the power wasn't there. A quick pcm swap back to factory still using the 50 lb injectors woke the back up the 14.50 range! NOTE: This is the SECOND Stage I kit I have worked with and BOTH CARS SLOWED DOWN-DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY IF YOU ARE TRYING TO CUT YOUR E.T. THIS KIT WON'T DO IT! I have tried all types of combinations-none which are successful. On two separate vehicles. Myself and the other PT owner which I do the majority of reasearch with are members of the OSCA. I encourage any and all PT Turbo owners to join us and have some fun! There are 5 races per year. If we can get 5 cars to enter the class, we can have our own class and compete heads up at a racetrack. This is at Cayuga Motorsports Park in Ontario. The events are well organized and the track is in great shape. Come compete for money and FUN! At any rate....back to the topic at hand. My 03 PT GT autostick has run a best E.T to date of 13.48@105.36Mph, that was yesterday, Sat Sept 13. This proves I have an idea what I am talking about. I am not just another guy running my mouth. A GREAT DEAL OF TIME AND EFFORT HAS GONE INTO THIS RESEACH! All the best and I HOPE TO SEE SOME MORE PT'S at the track next year. These cars look great and are fun to watch. Those of you that want of list of mods, here it is!
2003 Pt GT
Autostick.
MSD DIS-4 with a BTM w/ Fuel adder.(Custom adapters required).
Greddy Profec-B Spec II.
Snow Performance Methanol kit w/225ml per Min nozzle.
Stainless muffler(stock location).
Cat and all emission equipment intact.
205 40 17 BFG Drag radials.
Alternate side gears in transmission.
Stage I injectors.
Stage I pcm for street use(on race day this is swapped for the stock one).
Folding heated mirrors.(this option helps....lol).
Wilwood Front brakes(not installed yet-winter is coming).
More but I won't bore you.....
Check up for best E.T to date[:X]

All THE BEST AND GOOD LUCK. I HOPE TO SEE SOME PT'S OUT NEXT YEAR! LET'S HAVE FUN!
Check the OSCA wbe site for more info to come!
www.raceosca.com

PTTURBINE
[/quote]

[spidy134]

DENTATOR
I have discussed this with PTTURBINE we are only saying that for the track the factory PCM seems to be the way to go in its ability to be more mod friendly as you say you are not looking for track times youre car is a daily driver and the stage 1 kit is probably exactly what you are looking for a little more kick than stock without making any sacrifices the stage 1 kit has not been a waste of money to me or to PTTURBINE we both run the stage 1 PCM's for daily driving[|)]

[Ptturbine]

SPIDY134, well put. For daily driving in your auto, this will bring you to APPROX the 15.20 area...That is over .50 second quicker.