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STAGE I SLOWER????!!!!!

 
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Old 14 Sep 2003, 12:00 pm
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Default STAGE I SLOWER????!!!!!

Hi all, This is my first post here. I have however been reading most topics and posts by others. I work at a Chrysler dealer and have been a licensed tech for over 10 years. I have built race engines for many people including Mercury Marine, and numerous drag racers. I have put UNPARALLED effort and time into my '03 Pt GT. ALL specs are CONFIRMED via chassis dyno or dragstrip. Stock this car went a best of 15.80 @ 85 Mph. With the addition of a Greddy Profec B set at 17.5psi, a best time of 14.74 @ 93 Mph was attained. Note my car has a MSD DIS 4 system with custom from MSD ignition adapters and a Msd Boost Timing Master with fuel adder. This system allows me to plot fuel and ignition curves with a laptop.(To allow for poor fuel, traction, etc.) I have recently also installed a Snow performance methanol/water injection kit, however the gains are not worth mentioning....yet! Next time at the track I changed only the air box, which was removed and a a ram air duct was installed in place of the left headlamp assy and used 110 octane racing fuel. These changes alone netted me a low et of all time-14.450 @ 96 Mph. NO TRICKS or gimmicks! I rec'd my Stage I and BOV last Thurs. Installation was simple(of course), This kit feels exceptional on the street, however the best E.T. with the stage I pcm was a disappointing 14.84. Holding over 20 psi proved to be a simple task, but the power wasn't there. A quick pcm swap back to factory still using the 50 lb injectors woke the back up the 14.50 range! NOTE: This is the SECOND Stage I kit I have worked with and BOTH CARS SLOWED DOWN-DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY IF YOU ARE TRYING TO CUT YOUR E.T. THIS KIT WON'T DO IT! I have tried all types of combinations-none which are successful. On two separate vehicles. Myself and the other PT owner which I do the majority of reasearch with are members of the OSCA. I encourage any and all PT Turbo owners to join us and have some fun! There are 5 races per year. If we can get 5 cars to enter the class, we can have our own class and compete heads up at a racetrack. This is at Cayuga Motorsports Park in Ontario. The events are well organized and the track is in great shape. Come compete for money and FUN! At any rate....back to the topic at hand. My 03 PT GT autostick has run a best E.T to date of 13.48@105.36Mph, that was yesterday, Sat Sept 13. This proves I have an idea what I am talking about. I am not just another guy running my mouth. A GREAT DEAL OF TIME AND EFFORT HAS GONE INTO THIS RESEACH! All the best and I HOPE TO SEE SOME MORE PT'S at the track next year. These cars look great and are fun to watch. Those of you that want of list of mods, here it is!
2003 Pt GT
Autostick.
MSD DIS-4 with a BTM w/ Fuel adder.(Custom adapters required).
Greddy Profec-B Spec II.
Snow Performance Methanol kit w/225ml per Min nozzle.
Stainless muffler(stock location).
Cat and all emission equipment intact.
205 40 17 BFG Drag radials.
Alternate side gears in transmission.
Stage I injectors.
Stage I pcm for street use(on race day this is swapped for the stock one).
Folding heated mirrors.(this option helps....lol).
Wilwood Front brakes(not installed yet-winter is coming).
More but I won't bore you.....
Check up for best E.T to date[:X]

All THE BEST AND GOOD LUCK. I HOPE TO SEE SOME PT'S OUT NEXT YEAR! LET'S HAVE FUN!
Check the OSCA wbe site for more info to come!
www.raceosca.com

PTTURBINE
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Old 14 Sep 2003, 01:48 pm
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I'm know very little about our cars, but I'm sure it's been said that the stage1 computer does not like any engine mods...I don't know what an MSD DIS-4 or the greddy profec but were u running these and the methonal kit with the stage1?!
The only people that have had the stage1 bring slower times that I have found were on the srt-4 site and they all had other mods that people felt contributed to this and they later confirmed this...
Cheers,
LIP
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Old 14 Sep 2003, 02:53 pm
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Keeping in mind that Stage 1 uses bigger injectors, and has re-mapped ignition curves. Your add-on is going to need re-tweaking to maximize the benefit. No good reason why Stg 1 is slower, especially with the new shift schedule. The bigger injectors alone should allow better performance. Try playing some more before giving up on Stage 1.
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Old 14 Sep 2003, 03:01 pm
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Lip....Understood. The Stage I comp would NOT run with the MSD AT ALL!
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13.48@105.36
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Old 14 Sep 2003, 03:35 pm
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My only comment would be that Stage 1 and the Geddy don't get along without careful tuning the A/F ratios througout the RPM range to optimize for both.
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Old 14 Sep 2003, 08:07 pm
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Like I have said before WE NEED THE CODES to be
able to do all the mapping to make these thing
fly like i know it can.
Anyone out there willing to help?
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Old 14 Sep 2003, 08:35 pm
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I also found the same problem with the stage 1 feels great on the street but at the track it fell short by almost half a second!!
Im intrested in this PT track day I guess it will be held next summer
I think I will be ready for your PT and anyone else who is willing to come out and play lol..sounds like fun see you there little D
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Old 14 Sep 2003, 10:09 pm
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Culprat

Like I have said before WE NEED THE CODES to be
able to do all the mapping to make these thing
fly like i know it can.
Anyone out there willing to help?
If you can get the codes from DCX I will give you my first born! I have a 2001 had a Whipple SC and the codes drove us crazy till we just gave up. Took off the $3500 rock and am a lot happier. I have a 03 Stage I and I get what I'm supposed to do with Stage I . My humble advice is to take off all the aftermarket put on the Mopar BOV 3" down pipe and I do humbly believe you will being satisfied. If you think you can refigure the curves I beleive you will end up with like me! a blown 2001 engine or alot lighter in dollars.

Moondoggie!
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Old 15 Sep 2003, 01:42 am
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Mitsubishi won't bugde on the compressor mapping for the Turbo. The turbo is supposed to be running at 77% efficiency.

Data logging via the diag link is still keeping the aftermarket at bay, and DCX seems to be doing the same to the SAE folks with their sampling of ISO "standards" in defiance of the SAE ones.

One thing for sure, with Stage I, the further you deviate from stock, the less effective it will be. The injector up-sizing was definately needed; the 2004 stock GTs will have both the larger injectors and the same PCM that the Stage I is based on. That should let you know that the PCM software and the stock 2003 injectors may have been a bit weak.

With what you are doing with the additional fuel management, I would consider getting the 3.0 BAR TIP/BARO and MAP sensors that are rumored to be coming out with Stage II. If you are producing sensor readings beyond the limits that the Stage I (or stock) PCM can interpret; the PCM is just as likely to start pulling performance until the data it receives falls back under what it knows.

The SAE Paper on the Turbo build-up shows that the engine should be able to produce some good numbers. The direction that the Staged upgrades on the GT and SRT-4 is taking tends to indicate that the engine could produce near 300 HP / 300 Ft/lbs torque without much mechanical intervention. It is a PCM/programming thing. If you are going to go outside the PCM to produce performance, you may as well disable it and keep it from throwing tantrums and generally raining on your parade.

FWIW, the stock PCM software is geared toward Torque Based boost management, not HP-based. It is trying to provide the same torque for any given throttle position, regardless of ambient conditions. I guess the Stage I PCM is also working this way, but haven't seen it in print to verify. Just as the stock PCM will increase boost to offset higher ambient temperatures, it will also pull timing to counter-act spark knock from low octane gas. If any modification produces data that the PCM interprets as outside the realm of normal operations, it will probably still try to derate performance until the data is interpretted as normal again.

I salute what you are doing, and am interested in hearing what you find out. I am far away from where you are in regards to being able to do what you have with your GT. I have been spending what time I can trying to understand what the PCM is doing, and why. So far, that quest has been as frustrating as what you are experiencing on race day with Stage I and your mods...
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Old 15 Sep 2003, 08:20 pm
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Welcome to the land of on-board diagnostics (OBD). The Mopar stuff isn't as picky, despite what you might think....
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