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180 Hp + Stage 1 = Gt Stage 1 Power---but

 
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Old 10 Oct 2003, 11:30 pm
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Default 180 Hp + Stage 1 = Gt Stage 1 Power---but

Dealer installed stage 1 in my son's 180 hp 2004 Turbo and it suddenly became a GT Stage 1. Runs exactly like my GT Stage 1.

But !!! Air Conditioner Compressor will not come on. Readout on Dealer Hand held indicated excess pressure in AC and faulted out.

Looking trhough PCM circut tables this weekend to see if we can find the conflict (if any). Service manager races and is turbo whiz. Says he is sure he can find and fix problem. I hope so! Any ideas or suggestions world really be helpful.

Thanks
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Old 11 Oct 2003, 12:35 am
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High head pressure on AC? Maybe not cooling properly. The GT (High output) uses PCM based cooling fan control. Prevoius models used relays and temp sensor for high and low spped fan operation. I don't know if the non-GT model uses the old approach to cooling fan opeartion.

But, if it never came on at all, is it possible that there was a sealed system leak caused by the install and the system is low on gas? The compressor clutch should be electrically operated, and logic based from other sensor output. If one of the sensors showed low gas, high pressure, or a similar fault condition, the clutch would not engage the compressor.

Have the Service Manager determine if the Stage I PCM (GT Based) is trying to send a cooling fan signal through a harness (Non-GT-Based) that is wired for relay operation of the cooling fans. If this is the case, an additional interface would have to be engineered to turn the pulse from the GT-Based Stage I PCM into a voltage/current combo that would trigger either the high or low speed fan. If I had to make a choice, I would opt for the high speed. At the input side of the relay(s) the voltage and current requirement shoould be the same for either high or low.

Section 8W-42 of the 2003 Service Manual addresses the AC.

8W-42-8 covers the Turbo Fan Control C3 Pin 6 is the sense circuit wire from PCM to Fan on the GT

8W-42-7 Covers Turbo AC and heating.
8W-42-6 covers AC and heating in 2.0 and 2.4L Except Turbo
Non-Turbo sees High pressure signal at C3-24 and clutch control at C3-11
Turbo sees what is labeled Low Pressure signal at C3-24 and AC clutch control at C3-11 (the pressure signal seems to have the same function, but labeled differently.

8W-42-6
Non Turbo fan controls - C3-4 low speed fan relay to and C3-6 to high speed fan relay
8W-42-7
Turbo Fan controls - C3-6 is the only fan motor control and it is not a relay level voltage (from what I can tell).

This is all a rambling speculation from my end, based on 2003 service manual info. Don't take it in to the Service Manager and give the impression you are trying to tell him what to do. I am guilty of that kind of though process, and it isn't appreciated .

However, it may merit a mention that the PCM signals for the fan may vary from the GT and non-GT turbo models. I don''t have the 2004 manuals, so this may be a dead end.

Please let us know what you find out; if it is a fluke, or doable with a work-around - then what the work-around is...

"Let Captain Kirk go where No Man has Gone Before"
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Old 11 Oct 2003, 01:20 am
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I really appreciate the input! Service manager downloaded current infor (2004) from Dealer Only website Just Looked through Powertrain Control Module data comparing Both Engines (HO and 180 HP) . Control Module 3 -- CAV 24 in each is the AC high pressure signal and both are the same circut c22 20db/wt and this is where the high pressure fault seems to be coming from.

Also, I drove in with AC working just fine with original PCM. At present compressor does not come on due to high pressure read.
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03 GT, Stage 1
Race Pipe and custom 3\" back, Eibach Springs, A Pods with EFT and Boost, MP Underdrive Pulley, 180 thermostat, Taylor Racing Wires, NX wet Nitrous 50 shot for quick spool/hp with msd tac drive and window switch, Mopar BOV, FIPK intake, APC Euro Tail Lite Kit, all badges removed.
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Old 13 Oct 2003, 01:41 am
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There are no kits available yet for 2004's. Chances are you mistakenly were sent a 2003 kit. The AC pressure tranducer was deleted after 2003 and the fan was switched from PWM to 2 speed relay. I would bet that your fans are not operating properly as well.
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Old 13 Oct 2003, 09:52 am
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No fans cooling the condensor means high AC pressure, so yes, this makes sense.
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Old 13 Oct 2003, 06:00 pm
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You are correct Romli !!

Service manager at 5 STAR dealer waited on the special MOPAR dealer line for about 20 minutes and after a long conversation was told: "Oh, Stage one doesn't work on 04's and he knew of no workaround. I like the fact that the dealer ordered and Mopar sent it to the dealer with vin number, etc. and no one knew about the 04's. What a crock, and it ran great, auto trans worked fine, just no AC!

Had the stage 1 removed, went immediately to locat Turbocharger and Racing company. Twenty minutes later my son's car now has boost controller set at 13 psi ( 180 hp was maxing at 8 psi) and impressive performance! After we see how pcm tolerates 13 psi and we add EGT gauge we'll start turning up the juice. Notes in forum inidcate code thrown over 15 psi. Anyone have some idea of max psi with no code?
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03 GT, Stage 1
Race Pipe and custom 3\" back, Eibach Springs, A Pods with EFT and Boost, MP Underdrive Pulley, 180 thermostat, Taylor Racing Wires, NX wet Nitrous 50 shot for quick spool/hp with msd tac drive and window switch, Mopar BOV, FIPK intake, APC Euro Tail Lite Kit, all badges removed.
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Old 13 Oct 2003, 06:20 pm
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STAGE 1 DOES NOT WORK ON 2004 180HP ENGINE.

This is very important information. Somehow, the word needs to get out to everyone on this forum.

BTW, this is cutting edge information. Nobody else knows this yet. I've read on other forums that the stage 1 should work. Obviously, they were guessing just like your dealer.
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Old 13 Oct 2003, 07:19 pm
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From what I gather you can also assume that STAGE 1 WILL NOT WORK ON 2004 GT. Based on my experience and Romli's data above --- AC will stop on GT as well. PCM circuit tables for both the 180 and GT engines are IDENTICAL! The problem is 2004 and not 180 vs. GT. Other than the AC issue it ran like 2003 with Stage 1.
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03 GT, Stage 1
Race Pipe and custom 3\" back, Eibach Springs, A Pods with EFT and Boost, MP Underdrive Pulley, 180 thermostat, Taylor Racing Wires, NX wet Nitrous 50 shot for quick spool/hp with msd tac drive and window switch, Mopar BOV, FIPK intake, APC Euro Tail Lite Kit, all badges removed.
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Old 13 Oct 2003, 07:38 pm
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Stage 1 for 04MY isn't out yet (unless you're me)....
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Old 13 Oct 2003, 08:43 pm
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Stage 1 WILL eventually work with 180 Hp GT BUT you must wait until the 2004 kit is out. Rumor has it it will be just another week or two.

From 2003 to 2004 Chrysler changed a.) AC pressure transducer b.) Fan configuration and c.) downstream O2 sensor (the one in the catalyst). Unless you have a kit calibrated specifically for a 2004 car you will have multiple frustrations with a b & c.

Mopar made an oops and sent out several 2003 kits for 2004 vehicles. They are apparently working to ensure this doesn't happen down the road (much like the mis-programmed VIN's that initially plagued the SRT-4 Stage 1 kits).

By the way... this is NOT a conspiracy to thwart the "average Joe" aftermarket tuner!
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