question for 3barboost

[tthrift]

3bar, in the event that myself or some other guys make it to 300whp can you tell me what things we need to do different to our auto transmissions? such as what parts need to be replaced with stronger parts and if there is any thing we can do to increase the transmission fluid pressures.

thanks for your help

tommy

P.S. you and Gina are welcome to come visit my dealership at any time, maybe Mopar has a budget for some travel this year. we have quite an operation to show. we are one of the top 20 largest dealers in the nation and we like to pamper our Mopar reps when they come to visit.

[LAF]

TThrift

You sweet talker you....... :-)

I'd love to see you kidnap and administer a brain suction, cloneing, Mr. Spock mind meld thing on him, then he wouldnt lose his job because he talked willing, and we could get on with all this and everyone still gets a pay check.

Ohh, and what about half shafts, axel things too?

[3BarBoost]

quote:Originally posted by tthrift

3bar, in the event that myself or some other guys make it to 300whp can you tell me what things we need to do different to our auto transmissions? such as what parts need to be replaced with stronger parts and if there is any thing we can do to increase the transmission fluid pressures.

thanks for your help

tommy

If it were me, I would be swapping to a lower stall speed torque converter. That will lower the torque multiplication to the trans, and therefore not break anything downstream while you raise the torque going in. If you want to get really fancy, put a taller final drive in. That'll keep you in the lower gears longer where you have power to spin the tires - assuming you are making a lot more power.

Problem is, most everybody in the aftermarket builds HIGHER stall speed torque converters. We would have to do some research to see if there is one on the shelf that would suit our purposes. If I understand things correctly, a lower stall speed makes the torque converter bigger in diameter - which means there is or will be a limit to how much lower you can go. I think I have seen some info on 1.8:1 converters versus the stock 2.2:1 (torque multiplication factor) - that may be all there is.

So if Stage 2 is 280 x 2.2 = 616 ft-lb input into trans
and 616 / 1.8 = 342 ft-lb crank torque(not bad).

[macster]

quote:Originally posted by 3BarBoost

I think I have seen some info on 1.8:1 converters versus the stock 2.2:1 (torque multiplication factor) - that may be all there is.

So if Stage 2 is 280 x 2.2 = 616 ft-lb input into trans
and 616 / 1.8 = 342 ft-lb crank torque(not bad).

I've been thinking about this. Here is what I came up with. As long as you don't hammer it in low or autostick 1 you will be okay. If you do hammmer it, all you are going to do is to go up in smoke anyway. Another thing to consider is where are you making max torque at. There will be lot more strain on the drivetrain with 342 ftlbs of torque at launch then at 40mph. looking at the S1 HP/Torque chart max torque was made between 3.8k and 4.8kRPM. The car should be doing between 60 and 80MPH by then. So the additional torque shouldn't be a problem. Finally, I'm making 258flbs of torque at the wheels now which is 327 ftlbs (corrected) of crank torque. S2 will take it out to 270 ftlbs or so of torque at the wheels. But even then I "won't" make max torque at my launch (1500 rpm). Finally as we change the engine configuration the HP and Torque curves will change also, however the RPM range should be about the same since longevity was taken into account. All this was taken into consideration by the PVO team during RTD&E.

So my points are:

1. As long as we are below the max torque rating for the tranny at launch we should be good to go.

2. We are making 300+footlbs (corrected) torque at the crank with S1, now.

3. S2 should get us (est) 342.09footlbs (corrected) torque at the crank (270ftlbs of torque at the wheels). We should still be okay as long as we launch correctly

4. As long as we launch correctly we should have nothing to worry about.

[:I]

Let the beating begin

http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/...?TOPIC_ID=6521 <---- damn that about answers all of this.

macster

[3BarBoost]

Well, you can go your own way - I just think you are risking popping your trans once you exceed the 280 ft-lb mark.

Also, the whole crank versus wheel rating thing is BS. The engines make the numbers at the crank, and Dynojets lie. A lot. If I say an engine makes 280 ft-lb, and the trans can only handle 620 ft-lb - those are numbers the way I measure it. Trying to back-calculate to what a Dynojet says is time poorly spent.

Sorry, nothin against you macster - most people don't realize that most manufacturers (particularly those from the far east) lie about their engine performance in order to look better.

[macster]

quote:Originally posted by 3BarBoost

Well,

Sorry, nothin against you macster - most people don't realize that most manufacturings (particularly those from the far east) lie about their engine performance in order to look better.

You have something against me? Naww, I'm just not saying it right.

I'm gonna try again.


Ref: my dyno results posted under Stage Turbo Kits

Assumptions:
I'm dynoing at 200WHP and 258flbs of torque. S2 will bring me up to 229WHP and 280lbs of torque. Point here is that the membership in the 300HP club will not require us to do anything to the tranny, because we (the S2 autostick folks) will not exceed the 280ft lbs of torque at the wheels, because S2 won't allow us to.

Ramblings:

On the S1 dyno chart its shows 230HP and 260flbs of torque for the PT. If I compare my specs with that chart, I'm way out on the HP and dead-on with the torque figure.


Question:

What I'm asking is, should I expect to see similar results as was pictured on the S1 graphs, when I do a dyno? <----- yeah that's it. This is the last piece of the puzzle for me.


DA remarks:

Re: "go your own way" duhhh! I am, can't you tell? The axles cost $700.00(rated at 500HP), and the tranny about $1000.00 to rebuild. All that has to come out of my trip money.

I'm done

macster

[3BarBoost]

I think we're saying different things here.

Peak torque is what pops trans. If you get to the level of making 340+ ft-lb at the crank (possible with stage 2 because of the 3 bar MAP and TIP), something is gonna go. I really doubt it'll be half-shafts that go first. If you are making less power than torque, and the torque stays under 280 ft-lb ish nothing in the trans is gonna get hurt.

Will your results on the dyno going to be similar to the offsets you saw with Stage 1? Probably. Will you make 300 bhp at the wheel without doing something to the trans? Maybe.

Am I answering your questions?

[hyracer]

What about us 5-spd guys? Will we be able to safely go to S3 without tranny/axle problems (assuming we are not running slicks)? I know from experiance that we can't launch much past 2,000 RPM without wheelspin or
wheelhop so we are not at peak torque...but power-shifting is another story.
3BarBoost, any thoughts?

Deen

[macster]

quote:Originally posted by 3BarBoost

I think we're saying different things here.

Peak torque is what pops trans. If you get to the level of making 340+ ft-lb at the crank (possible with stage 2 because of the 3 bar MAP and TIP), something is gonna go. I really doubt it'll be half-shafts that go first. If you are making less power than torque, and the torque stays under 280 ft-lb ish nothing in the trans is gonna get hurt.

Will your results on the dyno going to be similar to the offsets you saw with Stage 1? Probably. Will you make 300 bhp at the wheel without doing something to the trans? Maybe.

Am I answering your questions?

First of all you totally hosed me up with your response. <---- is this really you?

Second of all, thanks for taking the time, to answer the questions.

I'm guessing that I will make 225HP at the wheels (donno if its what you are calling blown or not, gotta go back and look at some of your other posts cause you did explain it before) and 279 ft lbs of torque when I do my dyno run. If I get that I will happy with S2.<---Just thinking out loud in public.

Just a thought on my first dyno run with S1, I pulled 280 ftlbs of torque at 2537RPM with A/F of 13.7 and 13.9lbs of boost. But that was the run when I had a vaccum leak. Hmmmmmmmm!

Finally thanks it all clearer now, as in I know what path I'm going to take and its leading right back to the dyno.


macster

[3BarBoost]

The 5-spd trans will probably need a clutch upgrade to reach the 300 ft-lb/300 bhp mark. After that, it's how many trips down the strip you make with high grip tires.

One other thing for macster. The torque converter isn't locked up at WOT, ever. So the torque multiplication happens a lot of the time when you stand on it. In fact, it is probably biasing your dyno readings (power down and torque up).

Peak multiplication is when a car is brake torqued and engine is at stall speed. Once above stall speed, multiplication drops to essentially 1:1. This link may help explain http://www.bankspower.com/Tech_under...rqueconver.cfm

I also liked this video http://auto.howstuffworks.com/mpeg/torque.mpg