Where's The Beef? Stage II only 250 HP for PT?

[Mike-in-Orange]

quotetgtcb Posted - 02/25/2004 : 9:51:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I can find no discrepancy and I did not see one yesterday either? The first link shows no specs and the second shows 250/280?

The first page has mouse over images next to the picture of the silver PT, on the right side of the page. When you roll your mouse over the link it shows a spec of 240/260 for S1 and 265/280 for S2. Clicking on either of those takes you to the pages for each stage and the specs on those pages are lower.

Gotta tell ya, as a web designer I can't believe DCX hasn't fixed this yet. It would take me, oh, about 45 seconds to fix. And I'm not a high end designer by any stretch of the imagination.

[dtbrks]

Ya know, I am tired of the waiting. I am tired of the conficting information. [:I] It would be nice if Mopar would release actual numbers to the public so we could all make informed decisions. I feel like I am getting bitter over this situation and I may look for my performance elsewhere.

Old say, "sh!t or get off the pot".

[blueberrygt]

I'm all about being unbiased, but couldn't help myself...

-- Different modifications will have different effects, not to mention that Mopar has frequently underrated their power ratings.

-- It's a turbo car ... So regardless of whether S2 is something you will buy or not, if you want to make more power, you will need a bigger exhaust. Period.

-- If you want the power of an exhaust and don't want to spend $500, try JCWhitney ($200-$230) or weld in an exhaust cutout ($175).

-- If you order from an online store, prices are usually going to be cheaper, you won't have to pay tax, and shipping can't possibly be expensive.

-- The SRT has three different power ratings. The first is for S2 alone, the second with the IS, and the third with 100 octane. Refer to here: http://www.mopar.com/images/stage2dyno.jpg (the SRT still had a little bit higher power ratings than the PT on S1)


-- I noticed that a lot of people have Boost Controllers and S1 and whatever else -- is it fair to say that's at least $700+ spent? Let's say you run a 1/4 mile of 14.2 in an ATX GT with the boost set at 19psi.

*Assuming that the price for the GT would be similar to that of the SRT without toys -- vendors have been selling them for $825 mind you*

If S2 would get you the same 1/4 mile time, boosting at the same PSI that the boost controller would be set at, what is the difference in spending a little bit more money for something that is factory tuned specifically for our car and guaranteed to work?



People are assuming their stance on S2 and it hasn't even been released yet.

A lot of people paid at least $350-$400 for 15 WHP out of Stage 1. If you paid just about double that for 35 WHP, what the heck is the difference? Or some people paid $250 for an intake that yields 10WHP.

It's all relative...

[dtbrks]

You have some good points, however, most people who already have stage 1 (myself included) would only gain 15HP from 235 to 250. All that for, lets assume cost on most things, $875 for stage 2 (doubt we will see that anytime soon), $400 for installation at the dealer and $350 for the exhaust (plus installation). Add it up: $1625 for 15HP and no TOYS. Am I missing something? Doesn't that seem expensive? Compared it to stage 1, which I got for $325, for the same RELATIVE hp increase.

As for the actual HP increase, well, that's another story. Conflicting data isn't helpful. Now, if I were going to release an upgrade to a turbo, I would make sure all the work is done for a smooth release to the public. This hasn't been done, for whatever reasons. All info, specs, p/n's, pricing and delivery are out for the SRT4, but why not the PT? [xx(] I don't know.

quote:Originally posted by blueberrygt

I'm all about being unbiased, but couldn't help myself...

-- Different modifications will have different effects, not to mention that Mopar has frequently underrated their power ratings.

-- It's a turbo car ... So regardless of whether S2 is something you will buy or not, if you want to make more power, you will need a bigger exhaust. Period.

-- If you want the power of an exhaust and don't want to spend $500, try JCWhitney ($200-$230) or weld in an exhaust cutout ($175).

-- If you order from an online store, prices are usually going to be cheaper, you won't have to pay tax, and shipping can't possibly be expensive.

-- The SRT has three different power ratings. The first is for S2 alone, the second with the IS, and the third with 100 octane. Refer to here: http://www.mopar.com/images/stage2dyno.jpg (the SRT still had a little bit higher power ratings than the PT on S1)


-- I noticed that a lot of people have Boost Controllers and S1 and whatever else -- is it fair to say that's at least $700+ spent? Let's say you run a 1/4 mile of 14.2 in an ATX GT with the boost set at 19psi.

*Assuming that the price for the GT would be similar to that of the SRT without toys -- vendors have been selling them for $825 mind you*

If S2 would get you the same 1/4 mile time, boosting at the same PSI that the boost controller would be set at, what is the difference in spending a little bit more money for something that is factory tuned specifically for our car and guaranteed to work?



People are assuming their stance on S2 and it hasn't even been released yet.

A lot of people paid at least $350-$400 for 15 WHP out of Stage 1. If you paid just about double that for 35 WHP, what the heck is the difference? Or some people paid $250 for an intake that yields 10WHP.

It's all relative...

[MEXICANPT]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

People, don't miss the big picture here, TORQUE it's what it's all about, and we're getting a big increase.

RELAX, it will be fine if the price is below $1,000

That's of course my opinion, but I care more about torque than HP, torque is responsible for seat of the pants and driveability.

[blueberrygt]

Dtbrks - I do agree with your statement. I was just trying to point out some thoughts from the other side of the spectrum... personally I stand in the middle on this issue...

[dtbrks]

I understand what you are saying and somewhat agree, but would like to understand where the torque is coming from (ie, how much from boost, exhaust, etc). I still can't justify the price with all the installation, but that's me. It's also difficult to justify knowing I can't keep my tires from burning up anyway , so the extra torque wont do me much good until the higher gears. I think I would be better off getting the PT to stick to the ground with the HP and torque I have. [:I] I am tired of spinning my tires in first, second and sometimes third when I punch it[]

Is mopar increasing our RPM range also? I know they are on the SRT4.

quote:Originally posted by MEXICANPT

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

People, don't miss the big picture here, TORQUE it's what it's all about, and we're getting a big increase.

RELAX, it will be fine if the price is below $1,000

That's of course my opinion, but I care more about torque than HP, torque is responsible for seat of the pants and driveability.

[blueberrygt]

You'd think they'd increase the limiter on the man, transmissions.... are the ATX's abel to handle a higher limiter as well?

[dtbrks]

This torque thing got me thinking about the differences between S1 and S2:

HP= (Torque x engine speed)/5252 so let’s pick the max torque for a the given RPM range. I picked 4400rpm (n the max torque band). The max torque is 260 (s1) and 280 (s2) respectively.

Now, 4400 Rpm (Max torque), you get:

HP @280= (280*4400)/5252 = 234.57
HP @260= (260*4400)/5252 = 217.82.
Net increase of HP at max torque: approx 17.

Conversely, if we look at Torque as a function of HP, we see that: Take max HP for both Stages @ 5200 RPM (spec) we get:

Torque = (HP*5252)/RPM
Torque @ 250HP = (250*5252)/5200 = 237.35
Torque @ 235HP = (235*5252)/5200 = 252.50
Net increase in torque at max HP: approx 17.

Worth $1500? You decide.

PS- Somebody check my work!

quote:Originally posted by MEXICANPT

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

People, don't miss the big picture here, TORQUE it's what it's all about, and we're getting a big increase.

RELAX, it will be fine if the price is below $1,000

That's of course my opinion, but I care more about torque than HP, torque is responsible for seat of the pants and driveability.

[Ian-PT-GT]

quote:Originally posted by dtbrks

I understand what you are saying and somewhat agree, but would like to understand where the torque is coming from (ie, how much from boost, exhaust, etc). I still can't justify the price with all the installation, but that's me. It's also difficult to justify knowing I can't keep my tires from burning up anyway , so the extra torque wont do me much good until the higher gears. I think I would be better off getting the PT to stick to the ground with the HP and torque I have. [:I] I am tired of spinning my tires in first, second and sometimes third when I punch it[]

Is mopar increasing our RPM range also? I know they are on the SRT4.

[

You are right on!!![?]

I was reading a realy old but interresting book for installing Nitrous ( NItrous-Oxide Injection, by David Vizard)... All the info is late '70 or early '80s, The only electronic item in this book is the GM HEI Ignition... but the info is still correct today.

"maximum acceleration is acchived when the multiplied torque delivered to the driving wheel is just bellow, but not exceed, the limit of traction."

What drives the car forward is the force applied at the point of the tire contacts the ground. For example, if 3000 Pounds of force is required before a typical tire looses traction, then maximum acceleration will be achived at 2999.99 pounds of force applied at the contact point. This is maximom utilization of the tire.

On the other hand of you produce 3000.10 pounds the tire will loose grip and freewheel (spin). and once this happens acceleration is reduced drasticly...

What I want to say is, We don't want more torque if the tires are already spining with stage 1... We need to improve traction before increasing power...

I saw this first hand last week with my friend's Dodge 360... I installed a "clasic" (Two solenoids and a Carburator plate) Nitrous system. The car was runing constant 12.8 ET at the 1/4 Mile with no N2O.. I set up the Nitrous for 100 HP. The car ran 12.03 and 1.7sec at the 60' mark with no problems, but just a small loss of traction at the start line... We got cocky and decided to increase N2O HP to 175HP to the already 350 Engine power... The car only had 10" slicks on 8" rims and factory suspension. IT went all the way back to 13.01 and 1.85 at the 60' mark... The car went all the way to the 1/8 mark slipping and it didnt grip until my friend went to third...

you can increase power untill you reach the maximum that the suspension can withstand... anything over that is just to impress your frinds burning rubber...

Just two cents.

Ian