Radiator boilover may be head or gasket

[TheAnt]

I have had to replace a fan motor and ended up clipping out the connector between the fan and harness and soldered it straight in.

Why? because of evidence of corrosion and I had swapped my horn for the low speed fan relay yet lost the low speed fan again. Now I think I suspect the high speed relay because I pulled the cover and actuated it manually and got a "noisy" connect with a lot of sparks. I also found that it took pretty good pressure on the relay to make the fan come on, implying a resistive/bad connection.

Anyway, I got a bad wheel bearing during that time and after reading many posts, and being able to beytter hear my engine under road load conditions... head or head gasket!

At first I thought it was a valve clatter as I accelerate but with time I could hear it sounded more like an exhaust manifold leak... likely a head gasket or crack or warped head.

No water in the oil, no oil in the water, no misfires, just a boilover that starts after it is on the road from 10 to 20 minutes... and counting down. No steam out the exhaust and no funny change in pressure that I know of in the exhaust like steam expanding or vacuum into the cylinder on intake stroke.

A leak can happen between ports/journals, to the outside, oil, exhaust, cylinder, and in th9is case, apparently into the cooling system.

In this case I theorize that as the engine heats up it blows into the cooling system somewhere only on the explosion/fire stroke (at the highest pressure.) I also think that it may be too tight to allow water back in for the exhaust stroke. I think that wherever the leak is it pressures the system and allows water and steam to escape and makes a hot spot that takes a bit of time to cool off and once it gets hot enough to continue to boil.

So now it is 700-2000 for a gasket or new head if I pay to have it done.

...or do the chemical treatments work? I can afford to gamble $50 but wonder 2 things.

1) if it doesn't work, would it be harder to work on the head/gasket?
2) Would the nature of the problem, blowing into the cooling system mean that a coolant system chemical can not enter the crack/leak to do its business?

wadda challenge!

[GALVANIZEDYANKEE]

Start with a reverse flush of the complete cooling system, and engine. Replace the thermostat. No steam, no oil in water, no water in oil, no coolant in the exhaust, all suggest that you have a problem other than a blown head gasket.

[TheAnt]

Originally Posted by GALVANIZEDYANKEE

Start with a reverse flush of the complete cooling system, and engine. Replace the thermostat. No steam, no oil in water, no water in oil, no coolant in the exhaust, all suggest that you have a problem other than a blown head gasket.

Changed thermostat, flushed, radiator surprisinly free after 130kilomiles.
Two different radiator caps, careful bleeding of system, water pump new as of a few months ago when timing belt had broken and the mechanic replaced the water pump with it.

Again, since the wheel bearing was replaced I can hear the leak.

[TheAnt]

The www site looks nice but the two places I called that were listed on the www site said they didn't use it but had ordered for a customer in the past. I am sure of course that there is more profit in $700-$1500 mechanical repair vs. $50 in chemical sales.

I will do a bit more research on the www to get independant testimonials. I am not comfortable at this point I have to wonder whether this stuff would screw up a head and guarantee that a new head is in order if the chemicals don't work.

Again, i am interested in anybody's experiences with chemical remedies. I understand the chemical process and theoretically it might work...

I will let you all know whatever I learn.

Originally Posted by TheAnt

Changed thermostat, flushed, radiator surprisinly free after 130kilomiles.
Two different radiator caps, careful bleeding of system, water pump new as of a few months ago when timing belt had broken and the mechanic replaced the water pump with it.

Again, since the wheel bearing was replaced I can hear the leak.

[crusierdad76]

well i have never used any thing in the PT but we use stop leak all the time in out tractors and farm trucks
Now Im not going to say they work 100% all the time but when we have had a small leak they work pretty good---on a John Deer tractor the radiator is like $1000 so if a bottle of stop leak will fix it ya have to go that way, we have put in in the older trucks we drive as well
I did actually put a bottle in the wifes intrepid and it worked so Id have to sy give it a try

Question when the timing belt was replaced are you 100% sure they got it back in correct time????
I have a hard time thinking you can hear a leak in the head but have nothing in the oil or water

[TheAnt]

Thanks for the input.

The Steelseal that I am looking at is said to not use particles that could settle and clog up small ports. It is supposed to respond to heat and change its nature at the source of the breech, be it a gasket or crack, presumably undergoing a chemical reaction initiated by heat way above the water temperature, only at the source of exhaust or combustion gas. You run the engine for a period of 30 minutes to allow it to heat and presumably (again) open up and beign the process. As the engine cools the crack or gasket tear tries to tighten as the chemical adhering to the hot site solidifies.

Anyway, that is my idea of what happens based on my slightly above the layman's chemistry knowledge. I have been around polymer and many other chemical manufacturing processes for almost 30 years. Some of it is bound to stick to you over time, heh.

For $50 vs. I am told, a minimum of a kilobuck. It's worth a try. If it doesn't work I have to pay the big bucks anyway. I may end up selling it as sCRAP... who knows.

It may only be a gimmick to give the impression that it is serious stuff because the price is $44 (for a 4-banger), much more than the $5-$20 Autizone chemical shelf products.

One would not expect any chemical to go into a crack or hole that only opens under intense heat and under too much pressure to allow any backflow of liquid into the crack. I figger it is a race between how wide the breech is as the polymer (or whatever) at high heat and the rate at which chemicals can "seek out" (react at) the hot spot and undergo the reaction before it closes, forming a sort of plug that would have to withstand expansion and contraction of the metal parts.

Yep this is way speculative and what the "snake-oil" salesman wants us to believe but I will try it, I think. Maybe I am just PT Barnum's proverbial fools "born every minute" and they will statictically get their share of $$ but I will honestly report my results.

Originally Posted by crusierdad76

well i have never used any thing in the PT but we use stop leak all the time in out tractors and farm trucks
Now Im not going to say they work 100% all the time but when we have had a small leak they work pretty good---on a John Deer tractor the radiator is like $1000 so if a bottle of stop leak will fix it ya have to go that way, we have put in in the older trucks we drive as well
I did actually put a bottle in the wifes intrepid and it worked so Id have to sy give it a try

Question when the timing belt was replaced are you 100% sure they got it back in correct time????
I have a hard time thinking you can hear a leak in the head but have nothing in the oil or water

[TheAnt]

Originally Posted by crusierdad76

...Question when the timing belt was replaced are you 100% sure they got it back in correct time????
I have a hard time thinking you can hear a leak in the head but have nothing in the oil or water

The car has run well as far as timing goes. What I hear sounds like a muffled donut gasket leak. Sharp and proportional frequency and intensity depending on load. Revving the engine does not yield the noise whereas steady accelerating 0-30 mph makes it audible. Above that speed the road noise hides most of the sound.

It could be a compression stroke leak to outside air that I hear, perhaps hidden beneath the intake or near the exhaust ports. It could be more than one leak. I don't think that coolant runs through the head but it does stand to reason that a crack or gasket breech could be between water and oil or the cylinder, or a crack, or whatever. If it got worse or were in a different location I agree one would expect water in oil, or vice-versa. Another possibility could be a leak that is bad enough to allow water into the cylinder in the intake stroke, yielding steam out the exhaust AND a blast of gasses released into the crankcase, cooling system, intake, outside, or maybe even into the exhaust on the compression and combustion strokes. It does violently "erupt" if the radiator cap is left off when the engine suddenly gets hot ...or... the leak opens with heat and blows water out. Any combination of leak paths is possible, imo.

I remember working on cooling systems in the past on V8's where you could watch the water begin to flow as the thermostat opens but you would had a bit of time to put the cap on before a nasty boilover started. This thing goes from no flow to blasting out all at once. Of course the thermostat is directly below the coolant system pressure cap. It is not actually a "radiator cap" in that it sits on top of the block.

Sorry to ramble... unfortunately that is the thought process of ADD folks. Cursed by a constant awareness of details whether relevant or not.

[TheAnt]

OK, I tried it.

I contacted customer service at Steelseal first because I was concerned whether my PT could run the 30 min at 1000RPM as required in the instructions. CS said that it might be ok at 20 min.

I did this on a near freezing night not having driven since the day before so that it was totally cool per instructions.

I managed to run at 1000rpm for the fullk 30 minutes. I never heard a bubble into the overflow and the motor never reached the normal 1/2 way mark. The no bubbles was totally unusual. I expected a full boilover but it never happened.

I assumed that the leak had sealed but would not know until I could drive it under load for a goof road test. The next day I checked the coolant level and saw no loss! There was a stick spot on the intake and on the ground under the radiator driver's side that looked like somehad dropped a lime popsicle on a hot day and it dried to a sticky goo. Apparently, there was a water leak somewhere.

So I begin to drive it as normal, beginning with a trip to work, a 35 to 40 minute 33 mile drive. Most is at highway speeds but there are a half-dozen lights over the last 4 miles. Never did I hear a bubble but the noise of what had sounded a couple of weeks ago like deep clatter from bad gas was getting worse. The noise never happened unless I was accelerating. It became louder and more sensitive to any acceleration at all.

I made it home but the noise was getting worse. Still no water loss. The next few times I started it it took quite a few rollovers to get it going. I suspected loss of compression or water in the cylinder.

It finally got such that it was harder to start and would make the noise even at steady highway speeds. The nouse sounded a bit like a donut exhaust gasket leak, getting worse and being more forceful under acceleration.

Still no coolant loss. My guess is that the cylinder was indeed leaking under acceleration into the cooling ports through a broken head gasket and once that was sealed it meant more pressure on a likely small leak to the outside. It may also be that the Steelseal solidified in a gap as the head warmed and warped away from the block. Any leak directly into the exhaust from the cylinder would not be fixed from the steelseal in the sooling system.

The last time I drove it, I put my palm over the exhaust pipe and indeed felt what I suspect was a vacuum indicating a breech between exhaust and cylinder.

So now what? It has to mean a head job. In any other venue that might sound good but my repair guy says that even if it is just a gasket the right thing is to take the ehad to a machine shop and see whether it is warped. By the time she's together we are talking $1000 minimum and more depending... I suppose if another head is needed.

The Steelseal seems to have sealed a breech between the cylinder and cooling system that was only there after the motor had warmed up.

I wish I had tried it early on. Perhaps that would have kept a hot spot from getting worse, boiling/blowing out my coolant, and probably warping my head. I feel like Steelseal may be a great, inexpensive fix for some folks. I would try it again under any circumstances where I suspected a water leak caused by head leak.

So now what? Save my money for a high-dollar head fix. I figure it is a bigger job than I want to do but also a more expensive job than I can afford.

I will try to get a look at the head when it comes off and let you all know what happens next.

[TheAnt]

I sent an email this weekend and got a pretty prompt response. The response was basically, sorry you had problems, will have a tech call monday. I don't think they called.

I didn't have time to call them but would have had to respond to them if they called me. Maybe on another phone...

[TheAnt]

Originally Posted by TheAnt

I sent an email this weekend and got a pretty prompt response. The response was basically, sorry you had problems, will have a tech call monday. I don't think they called.

I didn't have time to call them but would have had to respond to them if they called me. Maybe on another phone...

I will know more tomorrow because our mechanic is on it. He said he would take pics of the head for me. I know I can trust him anyway but am curious how the steelseal did.

He did a test on cylinder compression and had evidence of a gasket breach (I hope a gasket) between two cylinders. I will let you know what I learn.

The main thing I want to know is how the steelseal fix looked on the cylinder to water jacket leak. It worked, I know that much!

BTW, the steelseal folks said they could give me more and work with me to maybe make the stuff work. I decided not to but the guy said they have a very high success rate. I saw no way that it could seal a cylinder pressure leak where the water could not transport the chemical.