PT Cruiser Forum  
Advertisements
       

Go Back   PT Cruiser Forum > General Forums > Tech & Performance Forum

PT Cruiser Forum

Advertisements
performance cams?

 
Like Tree9Likes

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 20 Aug 2012, 04:47 pm
cruisin03pt's Avatar
Cool Cruiser
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Rochester Hills MI
Posts: 267
Default performance cams?

so since i dont have a turbo,(obviously ) i was looking into putting in new cams into my pt. Does anyone have expirence with them? i'm looking into a couple mild ones(Crane cams sells some). I figure it'll mess with my timing on the computer. If i go through with these, do i need to reset my timing, and change any other parts other than the exhaust and intake?
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 20 Aug 2012, 05:44 pm
NitroPT's Avatar
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA kalyfornia
Posts: 15,517
Default Re: performance cams?

The term a "mild" is very generic.

***You need to tell us what your goal is and what mods you already have done to the engine and are planning on doing.

I would not value to much what the advertisements say from the manufactures.
And most of the specification are not engineering numbers so they can be bloated to look more impressive then actual EN's.

I would not assume anything with regards to what the ECU will do. Until you have ^^^***
Badglas likes this.
__________________
Dalai Lama
"Share you knowledge. It's the best way to achieve immortality."
ASE MASTER TECHNICIAN
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 20 Aug 2012, 05:52 pm
SpannerHound's Avatar
Regular Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Scotland, but in Canada on Holiday
Posts: 192
Smile Re: performance cams?

Fast Road Cams will give you 2-5% more oomph at low to mid revs providing the engine can breathe properly, that means fitting a decent intake filter system, a ported head and manifold and a decent exhaust, at the least. Don't forget you also need to put that power down, so better suspension and of course you'll need some extra stopping power, so better brakes too. Do all the mods properly and you should see around 15%. If the engine has done more than 12K, I would consider it money ill spent. Do what everyone does, stick a loud exhaust on and some go faster stripes, nobody will know
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 20 Aug 2012, 05:59 pm
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 27,743
Default Re: performance cams?

Hey Hound, don't forget FLAMES. Everything goes faster with flames.
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 20 Aug 2012, 08:46 pm
UptownSport's Avatar
Veteran Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 55403
Posts: 3,912
Default Re: performance cams?

Cams are EXPENSIVE!!!!

You can get 2.0 (DOHC) cams for about nothing- You have to change something withthe magnet or plug wires.
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 20 Aug 2012, 11:21 pm
SpannerHound's Avatar
Regular Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Scotland, but in Canada on Holiday
Posts: 192
Smile Re: performance cams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CREWZIN View Post
Hey Hound, don't forget FLAMES. Everything goes faster with flames.
So true...love em, all that's missing is a fox tail on the antenna
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 20 Aug 2012, 11:22 pm
NitroPT's Avatar
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA kalyfornia
Posts: 15,517
Default what is a Performance cam?

Or you can be patient and see what I might come up with.
I might mention here first that I do performance camshaft engineering! Have for many moons and work with one of the largest and best known in the Performance Camshaft Industry. CROWER Cams and Equipment Company
I have several cataloged camshafts and valve-train components with them as well my own propitiatory engineered line that I hold the Masters to.
I am working with a couple sets of oem 2.4 cams right now. I think I can come up with something special that will work very well. I have already looked at and have made calls inquiring as to the engineering specification to some of the popular performance cams offered over the years for the 2.4. Needless to say and not unexpected most are not R&R but customer spec ordered cams sold individually and then later cataloged. Most all of the specifications advertised are generally more or less only base line useful. Unless you have access to the cam-card you can not accurately judge what the specification advertised really are. We as camshaft engineers hide the actual numbers for fear of duplication by other camshaft supplier/manufactures. So choosing a camshaft by the catalog specifications is not a technically sound way to choose your camshaft. And the street names like "super street, road race, Track master, Torque king,16's etc....to name a few given to categorized camshaft is just for advertising purpose as well and not true to what there meaning translates into in the real world. Even the cams I have marketed use advertised numbers based of a generic rocker ration otherwise no one would ever be interested in them as they would appear small by the numbers. But appearances are always deceiving! Unlike many camshaft suppliers I do supply a cam-card with every camshaft so you can successfully check both the accuracy of the specification and also effectively dial the camshafts into the engine.
The 2.0 OEM camshafts mentioned by experienced users is an affordable alternative upgrade for the 2.4 but the actual power gains are very slight. A DELTA performed testing them to 2.4 camshafts would most likely yield less then 2% over the OEM 2.4 cams. I realize that some use the 2.0 cams in their PT and stand by them as a good alternative but there could be better choices making a more linear power curve for very little investment.
Besides you can get close or the same power output using the 2.0 cams using the stock 2.4 cams by careful trail and error testing of camshaft timing.
Don't get excited with this option as it takes experience with getting into and out of the 2.4 valve train and camshaft degreeing experience before even considering playing with the camshaft timing. As far as the ECU goes there is a couple cams advertised specification (ICL) that may give the ECU some challenges to smooth out the engine but that goes back to the engineering consideration that seemed to not be calculated within specification during there designing? You would be surprised how easy it is to get some outrageous specifications without having to worry about re-mapping (ECU calibration change) the ECU. It’s nice to talk about improving intake and exhaust flow to make a camshaft work better but in reality unless the camshafts are being custom engineered for a particular engine and its modifications you end up buying a cookie cut camshaft that you need to build and tune around to make it work really well instead of the opposite adding a camshaft to help improve the performance parts and modifications already accomplished?
This is also may be part of the reason why many choose the 2.0 option camshaft over available performance options readily available besides the price point comparison?
I take a different view of engineering camshafts. I consider only the OEM specification of the power trains output values and design a camshaft around them first and foremost. This means that anything you do to improve the engines output will only be augmented with by the camshaft naturally improving everything working together, as it should be. And not the camshaft struggling to add more power to the engine alone.
Please forgive me but I will not be getting into a technical posting of how camshafts work and how they are designed. And yes I will be using the 2.4 quality billet as a base material and regrinding them, to my specifications. Please, please do not go into why some think and I do mean think (with no actual camshaft engineering and camshaft machining experience) you can’t get performance level specification machining from stock camshaft core. lol
It is been my long time experience that this only ends in a counter productive conversation. These responses often times challenging my experience with them which serves no useful purpose in the informational thread. Feel free to contact Dave Crower direct at CROWER Cam and Equipment Co. and inquire about me. He would be happy to talk to you! Don’t ask about my projects or business relation with him because he will politely(maybe) inform you it is none of your business and refer you to contact me about such matters. Lol
As I have updates to my personal camshaft project with the 2.4 OEM cams I am sure I will post them? And I would like to do so. So long as I get positive productive responses. This is in no way a sales pitch and I will NOT be offering any cams as a product for sale for PT’s. This is for my personal use only.
Using your search engine type NitroStick,or NitroStick Camshafts and you will see some of my wares! I would give the http but this way it looks none biased.

__________________
Dalai Lama
"Share you knowledge. It's the best way to achieve immortality."
ASE MASTER TECHNICIAN

Last edited by NitroPT; 21 Aug 2012 at 12:08 am. Reason: added picture
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 21 Aug 2012, 09:19 am
Busted_PT's Avatar
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Beckley, W.V.
Posts: 13,880
Default Re: what is a Performance cam?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroPT View Post
Or you can be patient and see what I might come up with.
I might mention here first that I do performance camshaft engineering! Have for many moons and work with one of the largest and best known in the Performance Camshaft Industry. CROWER Cams and Equipment Company
I have several cataloged camshafts and valve-train components with them as well my own propitiatory engineered line that I hold the Masters to.
I am working with a couple sets of oem 2.4 cams right now. I think I can come up with something special that will work very well. I have already looked at and have made calls inquiring as to the engineering specification to some of the popular performance cams offered over the years for the 2.4. Needless to say and not unexpected most are not R&R but customer spec ordered cams sold individually and then later cataloged. Most all of the specifications advertised are generally more or less only base line useful. Unless you have access to the cam-card you can not accurately judge what the specification advertised really are. We as camshaft engineers hide the actual numbers for fear of duplication by other camshaft supplier/manufactures. So choosing a camshaft by the catalog specifications is not a technically sound way to choose your camshaft. And the street names like "super street, road race, Track master, Torque king,16's etc....to name a few given to categorized camshaft is just for advertising purpose as well and not true to what there meaning translates into in the real world. Even the cams I have marketed use advertised numbers based of a generic rocker ration otherwise no one would ever be interested in them as they would appear small by the numbers. But appearances are always deceiving! Unlike many camshaft suppliers I do supply a cam-card with every camshaft so you can successfully check both the accuracy of the specification and also effectively dial the camshafts into the engine.
The 2.0 OEM camshafts mentioned by experienced users is an affordable alternative upgrade for the 2.4 but the actual power gains are very slight. A DELTA performed testing them to 2.4 camshafts would most likely yield less then 2% over the OEM 2.4 cams. I realize that some use the 2.0 cams in their PT and stand by them as a good alternative but there could be better choices making a more linear power curve for very little investment.
Besides you can get close or the same power output using the 2.0 cams using the stock 2.4 cams by careful trail and error testing of camshaft timing.
Don't get excited with this option as it takes experience with getting into and out of the 2.4 valve train and camshaft degreeing experience before even considering playing with the camshaft timing. As far as the ECU goes there is a couple cams advertised specification (ICL) that may give the ECU some challenges to smooth out the engine but that goes back to the engineering consideration that seemed to not be calculated within specification during there designing? You would be surprised how easy it is to get some outrageous specifications without having to worry about re-mapping (ECU calibration change) the ECU. Itís nice to talk about improving intake and exhaust flow to make a camshaft work better but in reality unless the camshafts are being custom engineered for a particular engine and its modifications you end up buying a cookie cut camshaft that you need to build and tune around to make it work really well instead of the opposite adding a camshaft to help improve the performance parts and modifications already accomplished?
This is also may be part of the reason why many choose the 2.0 option camshaft over available performance options readily available besides the price point comparison?
I take a different view of engineering camshafts. I consider only the OEM specification of the power trains output values and design a camshaft around them first and foremost. This means that anything you do to improve the engines output will only be augmented with by the camshaft naturally improving everything working together, as it should be. And not the camshaft struggling to add more power to the engine alone.
Please forgive me but I will not be getting into a technical posting of how camshafts work and how they are designed. And yes I will be using the 2.4 quality billet as a base material and regrinding them, to my specifications. Please, please do not go into why some think and I do mean think (with no actual camshaft engineering and camshaft machining experience) you canít get performance level specification machining from stock camshaft core. lol
It is been my long time experience that this only ends in a counter productive conversation. These responses often times challenging my experience with them which serves no useful purpose in the informational thread. Feel free to contact Dave Crower direct at CROWER Cam and Equipment Co. and inquire about me. He would be happy to talk to you! Donít ask about my projects or business relation with him because he will politely(maybe) inform you it is none of your business and refer you to contact me about such matters. Lol
As I have updates to my personal camshaft project with the 2.4 OEM cams I am sure I will post them? And I would like to do so. So long as I get positive productive responses. This is in no way a sales pitch and I will NOT be offering any cams as a product for sale for PTís. This is for my personal use only.
Using your search engine type NitroStick,or NitroStick Camshafts and you will see some of my wares! I would give the http but this way it looks none biased.

Too sad for the PT community that these won't be offered. I was just wondering what these might do as for gas mileage and power. Would the same cams work without changes in the 03 gt or the turbo lites, without changing the fuel grade requirements of the particular car? Or using the stock injectors of the 03 gt? Just things I thought about when I first heard of this project.

More gas mileage and a little more boot in the a$$ seams like free lunch. As they say antn't no free lunches, somebody body always has to pay. But is that really true?

And hey Nitro what about those RED flames, are the really faster?
__________________

03 Dream stock___________________________ 04 Touring turbo lite stock_________ 02 Touring stock_____________________ The "Three Amigos"
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________Performance, Body and Service, OEM

This Is my project page.
http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/...oject-1-a.html

This is a great read from one of our own! Badglas
badglas.blogspot.com

Last edited by Busted_PT; 21 Aug 2012 at 09:29 am.
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 21 Aug 2012, 10:05 am
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 27,743
Default Re: what is a Performance cam?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busted_PT View Post
And hey Nitro what about those RED flames, are the really faster?
Doesn't matter what the color of the flames, it's the imaginary kick in the seat of the pants that you get when adding the nostalgic look of the Hot Rods of days gone by.

  #10 (permalink)  
Old 21 Aug 2012, 10:38 am
NitroPT's Avatar
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA kalyfornia
Posts: 15,517
Default Re: what is a Performance cam?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busted_PT View Post
Too sad for the PT community that these won't be offered. I was just wondering what these might do as for gas mileage and power. Would the same cams work without changes in the 03 gt or the turbo lites, without changing the fuel grade requirements of the particular car? Or using the stock injectors of the 03 gt? Just things I thought about when I first heard of this project.

More gas mileage and a little more boot in the a$$ seams like free lunch. As they say antn't no free lunches, somebody body always has to pay. But is that really true?

And hey Nitro what about those RED flames, are the really faster?
As a business and marketing a new camshaft that no one has done on an already product saturated market means continually having to defend it! It costs money to do engine DYNO plots with Delta's to demonstrate the end results. And even with those you will always get the crowd that have already tried one maybe 2 camshafts and settled on one as the best thing sense "peanut butter" and nothing can be better. And the second BIG problem is end users that have already done engine mods more then likely have mismatched combinations that become counter active producing power engine output and adding a camshaft only worsens the problem which the camshafts gets blamed for.
The specification I usually try to use increase the engines torque level at a lower engine speed. This theoretically should not only improve the throttle response and give a smooth upward linear power transition which would relate to improved MPG.
Most engine codes that may have been initiated by a camshaft directly is usually in one area of the specifications which could easily be corrected from the camshaft grinder. My experience shows that the camshaft itself was not the direct cause of an engine code but rather the camshaft simply augmented an already pre-condition problem. I have seen where camshaft changed and problems arise blamed on the cam which gets changed out what was previously used and the problem apparently solved. Only to find that same cam installed in another engine showing no signs of the issue. This means that the original engine had a pre-condition problem that was not corrected before the install of the new camshaft.
In actuality very few engines changes need to be done if the camshaft specification are completely thought out. Having to re-map the ECU, change to larger injectors or octane related fuel grades means the camshaft is to large for the engine and the existing modification upgrades. If those things need to be changed then the camshaft is in the category of a track cam and other valve train components would also follow a recommended upgrade. I hate to say it with fear of debate but most performance camshafts are marketed for the inexperienced consumer. Big numbers does not translate to BIG power levels in many cases.
With regards to upper engine speeds, I do take under consideration that some will extend beyond the designed best power level of the camshaft. That is were research into other valve train components that when combined with any camshaft will help stabilize the power at higher engines speeds.
When I said I was not going to offer it that was meant not as a product for sale. I will entertain anyone interested giving them assistance in having their OEM cams re-machined if and when I personally get something interesting done to my satisfaction.

Reground or re-machined OEM camshafts simplified. To help clear up some misconceptions having to do with camshaft regrinding.
Most companies that regrind stock cams to oem specification also offer a slightly increased level of regrind but not considered a performance cam. These are typically what you would get in a master rebuild engine kit. There is also offered different quality levels of regrinds as well which is dependent on the budget and the usage. Even some new billets are not always finished in the best quality by some.
The current PT Cruiser performance reground camshafts I am working on will first be pre inspected, cleaned and precision finished ground to OEM specifications and micro polished by me personally. When the new specifications are applied I visually inspected as well as re-measured for accuracy to the specification and make sure they are within a very narrow and tight tolerance. The cam cards is individually printed for that newly numbered or coded camshaft and logged for future reference so if after testing grind numbers and their respective specification can easily be changed. I then run a master to keep as a hard example of the new specíd camshaft.
A performance regrind must have a base cam first ground and tested before you machine your final product. These tests are usually checking the hardness of the material and the general core condition. The stock cams are then measured for maximum specification taking account clearances and mechanical limitation of the corresponding valve train parts. The next step is machining the new specification to the OEM core camshaft. Here is where using a company like CROWER comes in handy, we/they use a few methods that give a reasonable predictability of the camshafts level of performance. For some of you that think they can go directly to camshaft companies and get the same level of performance cheaply think again. There is no such thing as a fifty dollar performance regrind. You get a guess based on experience what specification might work well and thatís what you end up. A good guess reground camshaft! Taking the time to gather other brand camshafts to measure them for their specification is counterproductive. Having that information takes as much time as simply creating oneís own specifications. And in many cases they are not tested specification but simply cookie cut specifications that may or may not work reasonably in most application ? In essence having the data on another companyís cam is really unimportant.
Some believe that you cannot achieve substantial lifts and duration from a reground camshaft. There are many ways to affordably get high level race specification out of them.
The performance PT Cruiser camshafts I will regrind using the oem core can be increased in all aspects such as lift close to using a new raw billet.

And YES any Flames and RED parts on any vehicle will make more power!!!
Busted_PT likes this.
__________________
Dalai Lama
"Share you knowledge. It's the best way to achieve immortality."
ASE MASTER TECHNICIAN

Last edited by NitroPT; 21 Aug 2012 at 10:48 am.
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crane -10 cams flashbk2 Tech & Performance Forum 3 02 Jun 2013 10:37 pm
any one know about cams? bhunt41 Tech & Performance Forum 3 13 Jul 2011 11:52 pm
Hotter Cams elMorro Tech & Performance Forum 4 22 Jul 2009 08:22 pm
cams, cam gears?? proxeyed Tech & Performance Forum 14 18 Jan 2005 12:36 pm
Cran Cams sotexpt Tech & Performance Forum 0 05 Jan 2004 08:59 pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:01 am.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2 © 2011, Crawlability, Inc.
vB.Sponsors