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2005 turbo/auto, 80K miles, shuts off immediately after cold start

 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 14 Oct 2012, 09:30 pm
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Default 2005 turbo/auto, 80K miles, shuts off immediately after cold start

My girlfriend's daughter's PT 'vert has recently started exhibiting an "unplanned shutdown". She's at college, so most of what I can find out is second hand through her.
Some times when she tries to start the car, it will start, idle for approximately 3 seconds then shut off on its own. This behavior is intermittent. I was able to get to the car today and it finally exhibited the failure for me. I started it and shut it down several times. It had several "faulty starts" mixed in with several good starts.
Codes: 0031, 0037, 0138, 0513.
The fuel pump runs. We also swapped the fuel pump and horn relays, just in case the relay was intermittent. No effect.

Codes 0031 and 0037 came up a couple of months ago. I replaced both sensors. I think one of the replacements was Denso, the other was Bosch.

About 4-5 months ago, the key broke off in the ignition. She had a new ignition lock installed and was given new keys. She keeps the stump of the old key on her key chain. The problem did not start then.

The car frequently sits for two days at a time. Cold or warm (the car, not the weather) doesn't seem to matter. The problem has been getting more common over the last 3-4 weeks.

I'm a GM guy and I understand how OBDII works.
What is the SKIM key? Is there a transponder or RFID in the key that the vehicle queries? Would having two different keys on her key chain cause this code?

Is it common to see both the low voltage and high voltage codes for the same O2 sensor?

Is this a common failure mode? What is likely to be the problem?

Thanks!
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Old 15 Oct 2012, 04:51 pm
TurboDucky's Avatar
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Default Re: 2005 turbo/auto, 80K miles, shuts off immediately after cold start

Starts, then dies - Does it start right back up?

Or do you have to do anything else to get a restart?

And, after it restarts, does it run ok, or die again?

-Gary-
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Old 15 Oct 2012, 04:55 pm
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Default Re: 2005 turbo/auto, 80K miles, shuts off immediately after cold start

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkSideofWill View Post
My girlfriend's daughter's PT 'vert has recently started exhibiting an "unplanned shutdown". She's at college, so most of what I can find out is second hand through her.
Some times when she tries to start the car, it will start, idle for approximately 3 seconds then shut off on its own. This behavior is intermittent. I was able to get to the car today and it finally exhibited the failure for me. I started it and shut it down several times. It had several "faulty starts" mixed in with several good starts.

About 4-5 months ago, the key broke off in the ignition. She had a new ignition lock installed and was given new keys. She keeps the stump of the old key on her key chain. The problem did not start then.

I'm a GM guy and I understand how OBDII works.
What is the SKIM key? Is there a transponder or RFID in the key that the vehicle queries? Would having two different keys on her key chain cause this code?

Thanks!
I "chopped" the other stuff out, because it sounds like the key might be the issue. Yes, there's a transponder in the key. If it's hanging too low on her key chain (I've seen some of the key chains that women put together.) It might not be getting the signal up to the receiver. The radio that reads the key is up in the middle / top of the dash.

-Gary-
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2001 PT Cruiser - NA - 5 Speed - Exhaust and CAI Mods - It's alive!!!
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 08:36 am
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Default Re: 2005 turbo/auto, 80K miles, shuts off immediately after cold start

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboDucky View Post
Starts, then dies - Does it start right back up?

Or do you have to do anything else to get a restart?

And, after it restarts, does it run ok, or die again?

-Gary-
The one time I've seen it happen in person, it was 50/50 whether it would start and stay running on restart or start and die. It would start every time just from turning the key off and restarting, but would only stay running about half the time. It started and ran normally... it wasn't stumbling or having trouble staying running.
It happened to her again over the weekend and she tried it for 1/2 hour and it never stayed running.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboDucky View Post
I "chopped" the other stuff out, because it sounds like the key might be the issue. Yes, there's a transponder in the key. If it's hanging too low on her key chain (I've seen some of the key chains that women put together.) It might not be getting the signal up to the receiver. The radio that reads the key is up in the middle / top of the dash.

-Gary-
I was wondering about that... the start/stop behavior is similar to what GM engines do when their anti-theft systems are unhappy.
I was told that the new keys were "programmed".
It's taken months since the key replacement for this behavior to develop. Also, GF and I took the car for a weekend (that's when I replaced the O2 sensors) and used the "backup" key chain which does NOT have any of the original keys on it, only replacement keys.

Is there any kind of "limp mode" or "hardware mode" in the PCM? I'm curious about what the 0513 code really means.

Last edited by TheDarkSideofWill; 16 Oct 2012 at 08:40 am.
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 05:22 pm
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Default Re: 2005 turbo/auto, 80K miles, shuts off immediately after cold start

As far as I can tell, P0513 is a Key Read type error. If you're using replacement "chipped" keys, you may have a PCM issue. I found the below info on another site.

P0513 Invalid SKIM Key
Possible Causes Setting Conditions
Incorrect VIN programmed into the PCM, or no VIN programmed into the PCM
No communication with the SKREEM
SKIM trouble codes present (check for any SKIM codes)
Invalid key inserted
PCM has failed
Key on, and the PCM detected an invalid Sentry Key Immobilizer (SKREEM) key had been inserted into the ignition key assembly. The SKIS Secret Key is an ID code that is unique to each SKREEM/WCM. This code is programmed and stored in the ECM/PCM, the SKREEM/WCM, and each ignition key transponder chip. When the PCM/ECM or SKREEM/WCM is replaced, the Secret Key must be programmed into the new module using the Scan Tool.

This code sets in 1 Trip(s).
This code will turn on the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp)
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Old 22 Oct 2012, 10:17 pm
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Default Re: 2005 turbo/auto, 80K miles, shuts off immediately after cold start

Sorry to let this lie for a couple of days.

The car will start and run normally with *ONLY* the new key present. The presence of the old key is not required. That means that the keys are chipped and the transceiver module has been updated, right? As I mentioned before, it also went several months between when the new keys/lock were installed and when this problem cropped up.

I had read the description of 0513 as well... In a GM car, a failed PCM is extremely rare. Is it a more common failure in PT's?

Can having two keys with different codes in the chips confuse the SKIM module to the point that it would produce an erroneous result?
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Old 23 Oct 2012, 10:28 am
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Default Re: 2005 turbo/auto, 80K miles, shuts off immediately after cold start

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkSideofWill View Post
I replaced both sensors. I think one of the replacements was Denso, the other was Bosch.
It is well documented that the PT often doesn't like non-stock sensors. Get sensors from a dealer (plenty are online) and try those to rule that out.
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Old 23 Oct 2012, 10:39 am
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Default Re: 2005 turbo/auto, 80K miles, shuts off immediately after cold start

Quote:
Originally Posted by quicksilverdon View Post
It is well documented that the PT often doesn't like non-stock sensors. Get sensors from a dealer (plenty are online) and try those to rule that out.
I don't see how oxygen sensors can cause this behavior. It wouldn't do this if I unplugged them completely.

What brand are the stock sensors?
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Old 26 Oct 2012, 04:31 pm
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Default Re: 2005 turbo/auto, 80K miles, shuts off immediately after cold start

Bump.

We will go for dealership O2 sensors to try to make the O2 sensor codes go away.

Do only dealerships have access to the diagnositc scanner to read SKIM codes? From the descriptions I've read of the 0513 code, that's the next step in the troubleshooting tree.

Other suggestions?
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