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Old 13 Nov 2012, 11:35 pm
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Default Hydraulic hand brake mod

Hey guys, ive been throwin around the idea of installing a hydraulicly operated "drift" handle. Can anyone explain how one would plumb the new master cylinder inside the car? I know you have to tap into the rear lines, just not really sure how to plumb it to make it work correctly. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 14 Nov 2012, 07:20 am
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Default Re: Hydraulic hand brake mod

First, is it even possible to drift a front wheel drive car good enough to call it drifting? And second, why would you want to try anyway. Sounds to me to much of a waste of money to try and fit something like that in the car and getting minimal results.
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Old 14 Nov 2012, 08:47 am
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Default Re: Hydraulic hand brake mod

Well thats your opinion man, its a dedicated system so i dont break my e-brake cable.
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Old 14 Nov 2012, 09:18 am
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Default Re: Hydraulic hand brake mod

But you didn't answer my question. Can a front wheel drive car be drifted like a rear wheel drive car can be? So I did my own research and found this which explains why you would use this system on a front wheel drive car. Not for drifting on asphalt but for drifting on dirt like rally cars do.

In UK and Europe, many cars are front wheel drive. For rallying, cars are often fitted with a "hydraulic handbrake", in this case, a secondary master cylinder is connected to only the rear brakes. By using a hydraulic, rather than the conventional cable handbrake, the rear brakes can be locked up instantaneously and repeatedly. Many rally drivers will use the handbrake to correct the inherent understeer in a front wheel drive car, while maintaining full forward speed. This as opposed, to "lift off oversteer", induced to the chassis through lifting the throttle pedal sharply mid corner to encourage weight transfer, at the cost of exit speed from a corner.

The link to the complete article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handbrake_turn
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Last edited by Ray_Dockrey; 14 Nov 2012 at 10:14 am.
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Old 14 Nov 2012, 09:59 am
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Default Re: Hydraulic hand brake mod

Ray_Dockrey nice internet find I read that somewhere myself. Maybe give him the complete site for the rest of the information?

A front wheel car can be drifted successfully btw. But the PT is to front heavy not the first choice candidate but I suppose with 2 rear sway bars and heavy pound rated rear springs and a drift braking systems you could learn to drift it very nicely?

This forum is maybe not the best for this question to begin with? PT Crew is more into high end performance applications might try asking there. Be prepared for what the response will be. Or perhaps go to forums were drifting is the sport and the vehicle are already set up for that?

Drifting forum - Driftworks

However to answer your question you would need to Tee into both sides of the rear hydraulic brakes lines to install the drift system. This way you will bypass the anti-lock brake deice on the car. Then you just follow the instructions of the drift kit you get.



Here is a simple how to for FWD I found that you can see it not impossible to drift a FWD or even a PT.

Good luck with your adventure on PT drifting!
__________________________________________________ __________
Preparing to Drift with a Front Wheel Drive Car

1Go to a large, open area.
2Pull the handbrake or use the parking brake, riding it out the first time or two to get over your initial fear.
3Set up a cone in the middle of the lot.
4Drive up to it at speed (between 20 and 30 is desired).
5Pull the hand brake and turn toward the cone. Immediately after you feel the back end come around, turn to the opposite direction. This is known as opposite lock.
6Repeat the opposite lock at that speed until you can control your car well. Practice this for at least several weeks regularly until it becomes second nature. (Don't do this on roadways. It is dangerous to others and can get you fined.)
7Slowly increase speed until you are proficient in a speed you are comfortable with. Get to know that speed--you should never drift above that speed unless you are practicing.
8Upgrade. At the same initial speed, flick the steering wheel opposite of the turn and swing it all the way into toward the CONE (not turn, you aren't ready at this stage). As before, when you feel the rear end come around, go to opposite lock.
Drifting with a Front Wheel Drive Car

1Approach a turn at a comfortable speed, preferably in mid 2nd gear.
2Pull the handbrake while turning into the corner, try not to lock the rear wheels.
3You should still have the power on, try not to go less than 1/2 throttle at any time during the drift.
4When you feel the car start to understeer, and lose angle, pull the brake harder.
5When the car seems to turn too much, give it progressively more throttle, and release the handbrake some.
1Don't tense up, just feel it.
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Old 14 Nov 2012, 02:51 pm
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Default Re: Hydraulic hand brake mod

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruisin03pt View Post
Hey guys, ive been throwin around the idea of installing a hydraulicly operated "drift" handle. Can anyone explain how one would plumb the new master cylinder inside the car? I know you have to tap into the rear lines, just not really sure how to plumb it to make it work correctly. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Whatever hydraulic system you buy will have pretty complete instructions on how it should be installed.

With a traditional system, I think the issue you are going to have is that the PT has a 4-channel ABS system, with individual brake lines going to each rear wheel versus your typical non-ABS system that has a single line you can tap into. You are going to have to run a single line out of the hand brake into a T, then one leg of the T will go to yet another T that merges the line from the main brakes into the line from the hydraulic hand brake and then out to the rear wheels.

That said, I am certain you can find a system designed for a modern car with 4-channel ABS that will solve that problem. Probably check around for cars that are commonly used in rallying - I would check with a Subaru specialist first off.

I had a hydraulic handbrake on an '87 Saab 900T. It was hilarious, and pointless fun. Just be aware you do not want to use this thing in lieu of a real parking brake on the street. Leaving the hydraulics engaged all the time is not what they're designed for, and you would end up with a single point of failure for keeping the car stationary when unattended. *Not* advisable.

Edit: Here's one for a Subaru - plumbing would be identical in concept on the PT:



You can clearly see both lines from the main brake system coming into the handbrake master cylinder, out to a proportioning valve, then out to the rear wheels. That'd be the right approach.
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Old 14 Nov 2012, 06:38 pm
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Default Re: Hydraulic hand brake mod

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesameguy View Post
Whatever hydraulic system you buy will have pretty complete instructions on how it should be installed.

With a traditional system, I think the issue you are going to have is that the PT has a 4-channel ABS system, with individual brake lines going to each rear wheel versus your typical non-ABS system that has a single line you can tap into. You are going to have to run a single line out of the hand brake into a T, then one leg of the T will go to yet another T that merges the line from the main brakes into the line from the hydraulic hand brake and then out to the rear wheels.

That said, I am certain you can find a system designed for a modern car with 4-channel ABS that will solve that problem. Probably check around for cars that are commonly used in rallying - I would check with a Subaru specialist first off.

I had a hydraulic handbrake on an '87 Saab 900T. It was hilarious, and pointless fun. Just be aware you do not want to use this thing in lieu of a real parking brake on the street. Leaving the hydraulics engaged all the time is not what they're designed for, and you would end up with a single point of failure for keeping the car stationary when unattended. *Not* advisable.

Edit: Here's one for a Subaru - plumbing would be identical in concept on the PT:



You can clearly see both lines from the main brake system coming into the handbrake master cylinder, out to a proportioning valve, then out to the rear wheels. That'd be the right approach.
Thank you, this is what i was asking about. Yeah, the pt isnt exactly the best car for this kinda stuff, but its my DD so i gotta make due. I was just wanting your guys' thought on how to run it. I drift my pt in the snow, and i also rally it ocassionaly. Thanks for the info guys.
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Old 15 Nov 2012, 12:56 am
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Default Re: Hydraulic hand brake mod

I don't care what anyone says, all cars are fun to drive fast (when it's safe to do so). We took a 1988 Saab with 200,000 miles to 24 Hours of Lemons four years in a row, and had a great time with with a $500 20 year old car. I drive the crap out of a 101hp 1962 Ford Falcon as often as possible and never once have thought about putting in a V8. It a PT is what you drive, there's no reason you can't have fun with it.

I will say this, though: Be really cautious about doing motorsports in your daily driver. Last thing you want to do is prang your car on a curb or rock or miss a shift and find yourself with a $3000 repair bill and no way to get to work. I would *strongly* advise saving the money you'd put into a hydraulic handbrake and funnel that money instead into some old, 100hp FWD car from the '80s. Wreck that? Who cares. If you like the PT, maybe consider finding some clapped out Neon you can gut down to sheet metal. That will get you wrenching experience on the platform and not cost an arm and a leg. It's amazing how fast those little things go when you take 800lbs of useless stuff out of 'em, too.
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Old 15 Nov 2012, 10:43 am
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Default Re: Hydraulic hand brake mod

It seems it can be done. I'm not sure what's meant by "Teeing" into the rear brakes. Are the rears solely operated with the handle or is the original rear system retained so that both the handle and the pedal are operational? If you lose the master cylinder function for the rear just know that you will lose the normal function of the rear brakes with the brake pedal. This may throw the balance off a bit in daily driver traffic panic situations. If you are the only driver you may become accustomed to dealing with it but if there are muliple drivers it can be a pretty bad idea.

Also, which brake set up do you have? Is it the GT style rear disk, optional rear disk or the base Cruiser with the rear drums? Another consideration is if you are ever in a fender bender, one look from your insurance adjuster and you will have a good chance of being dumped before the fact. I've been on a couple of jury panels for some auto accidents cases and I can gaurantee you that a brake set up like this would be a huge "smoking gun". I don't want to pee on your parade if that's what you want to do, just think about all the possible affects which you will expose yourself.
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Old 15 Nov 2012, 10:59 am
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Default Re: Hydraulic hand brake mod

Because I was the one that used the phrase Teeing which was meant in a Technical nature..... The Teeing into the rear brake lines as I described if done absolutely correctly will not effect the oem operation of the braking system. I have successfully installed many FWD cars with line locks in this fashion.
The sport of Drifting is like any other aspect of an Auto enthusiast world and like so many different aspects in our car enjoyment schemes to choose from this particular one may not be for everyone. Modifying a vehicle to use in such a fashion as "Drifting" is just another expression of an individuals vehicle. It is much the same as an example changing to different brake pad material or rotor design other then stock. One could argue this in an accident as well? As for safety concerns I ask this, how many of you all when changing front pads machine the rotor as REQUIRED to perform the simple task correctly? Ah huh!!

I think we should not pass judgement on "why" someone would want to do this kind or for that matter any sort of modification to their vehicle. Remember most of us all have had "wild" idea's and perhaps modification to our ride at some point in our life.
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Last edited by NitroPT; 15 Nov 2012 at 11:02 am.
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