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Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 26 Jan 2014, 01:39 am
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Default Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

I purchased a used 2007 PT Cruiser with 60K miles that would not start.
Found the timing belt was bad. Replaced timing belt and when I started engine, oil was streaming from the front oil seal.
Then I searched google and found out about the Chrysler engine failures on worn thrust bearings in cars with 20K miles and any other mileage.
I found the case number I posted below that explains the problem.

My question is what is best option to fix it?

1. Should I get a crankshaft kit & bearings, but then how long will it last? another 20K mi?
2. Should I buy a used engine? but then how do I know how long that will last before the thrust bearing wears and pushes the front oil seal out?

I also would like to know why this is happening: Why crank thrust bearings fail in these motors? and when and what did Chrysler do to fix them?
Maybe in 2008 engines are redesingned? so I can look for one of those to swap in the car?


Case Number K93016699
Vehicle Issue Crankshaft front seal pops out of the front cover.
Year 2005 , 2006
Model JR - Sebring/Stratus Sedan , JR - Sebring Convertible , PT - Chrysler Cruiser , RS - Caravan, Voyager, Town and Country
Engine 2.4L 4 CYL DOHC 16V SMPI , 2.4L I4 DOHC 16V H.O. TURBO , 2.4L I4 DOHC 16V TURBO
System or Component Front Seal Area
Symptom Engine Oil Leak , Fluid / Lubricant Leak
Region Front
Condition Verification Yes - Continuously
Case Verification Crankshaft front seal had popped out. Replaced the seal, and the same condition occurred again.
Recommendation If the front crank seal is popped out of position, measure the crankshaft end play. If the end play is out of spec (acceptable range is .090mm-.240mm/.0035"-.0094"), perform the following procedure;

Remove engine from vehicle (follow procedure as outlined in the service manual).
Remove bedplate (follow procedure as outlined in the service manual).
Inspect the following components: Rod bearings, main bearings, #3 thrust bearing, and #3 bulkhead for scoring.
If rod bearings, main bearings, and/or bulkhead are scored, replace short block.
If rod and main bearings show no scoring, but #3 thrust surface is scored, go to next step.
Measure width of the #3 bulkhead in the engine block and bedplate (Specification is 23.56/23.51mm). If measurement falls outside the range of specifications, then replace the short block.
Inspect crankshaft thrust faces (front and rear). If scored and/or worn, replace crankshaft.
Inspect condition of thrust bearing. If scored and/or worn, replace all new engine bearings.
Inspect back side of the oil pump (look for contact condition between the crankshaft and oil pump) If contact is observed, install new oil pump, and a new front crankshaft seal.
Modification Date 11/9/05 12:03 PM
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Old 26 Jan 2014, 10:54 am
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Default Re: Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

First, the way you talk about a car you bought that was bad in the first place, you'd think the crankshaft problem was pretty wide spread, it's not. Chrysler built almost 2,000,000 of these cars and there's over 20,000 members that have come to the forum with all sorts of problems and I can count on less than one hand the amount of crankshaft problems we've seen.

The way I see it, you know what your choices are, it's just a matter of what to choose. If it's easy enough to get yourself a newer engine and swap it in, do it. If following the recommendation of the factory for fixing the problem seems easier, do that.

Hopefully, you didn't pay too much for the car since it wasn't running. Maybe trading it in or selling it for parts would get your money back so you can move on to a different car.

You know what the problem is, the choices there are to fix it. You ask 5 of us, and yo might get 5 different answers and it'll still be up to you as to what you do.

BTW, there's dozens of us here on the forum that are regulars, lots with more than one PT and most with 100,000 miles or more, and we'd buy another PT and not give it a second thought as to when the crankshaft bearing would go bad.
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Old 26 Jan 2014, 11:38 am
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Default Re: Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

Like CREWZIN said this is not one of the most occurred problems. Although I have heard of it. It is more rare than you seem to think. Maybe do some investigative parts search to see when the crankshaft that is in your car was used. To avoid the years that had that crankshaft. And buy a motor from these years that didn't have it.
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Old 26 Jan 2014, 01:25 pm
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Default Re: Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

If it were mine, I would dis assemble engine and have it repaired.
This is an extremely old engine, first used in 1995- crank walk was never an issue until late models- I'm not sure what Chrysler did to cause this.
I *heard* they used 1/2 of a thrust bearing shell instead of two- But I can't say that for sure.
Again, older engines simply didn't have this issue no matter the mileage.

I think Crewzin summed it up though, five different people, five different answers.
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Old 26 Jan 2014, 05:00 pm
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Default Re: Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

Guys, thanks for the reply, I'm not putting down PT Cruisers, its just that you don't hear catastrophic engine damage from Ford, GM, Toyota on engines below 100K mi.
I just wanted to hear from others that went through this, if Chrysler found out why the thrust bearings fail so early, and what they did to fix it.
It might be less costly to replace with a crank kit, (unless the block got scored too much) but how long will that last? is there is a design flaw that exerts extra pressure on the thrust bearing?
If block is bad, I would be weary of purchasing a 2005-2007 engine if this sort of thing can happen, that is why I was wondering if the 2008 engine design is better or if Chrysler fixed this issue on it?
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Old 26 Jan 2014, 05:10 pm
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Default Re: Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

Repeating myself-

My suggestion is to disassemble the engine, and repair what is wrong.
Your first posting gives the steps. Machine shops can repair your crank, and likely your block IF that's needed- Complete replacement likely isn't necessary.

Again, prior to the late model 2.4, this just didn't happen. I don't recall a single post on this for the early PT's (nor the '95-'00 2.4 when used in sedans) I'd assume installing both bearing shells (IF that was the problem) would return it to the 'bulletproof' design of previous years.

Chrysler always had a reputation of having the best engines; slant six, 318, etc. Modern engines of other manufacturers do fail at low miles, but I agree this is not kuhl.
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Old 26 Jan 2014, 05:44 pm
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Default Re: Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geogee1 View Post
Guys, thanks for the reply, I'm not putting down PT Cruisers, its just that you don't hear catastrophic engine damage from Ford, GM, Toyota on engines below 100K mi.
I just wanted to hear from others that went through this, if Chrysler found out why the thrust bearings fail so early, and what they did to fix it.
It might be less costly to replace with a crank kit, (unless the block got scored too much) but how long will that last? is there is a design flaw that exerts extra pressure on the thrust bearing?
If block is bad, I would be weary of purchasing a 2005-2007 engine if this sort of thing can happen, that is why I was wondering if the 2008 engine design is better or if Chrysler fixed this issue on it?
The only one in that group I would believe that statement about is toyota. With chevy being the weakest of the big three. Don't know were you get your figures there but I have seen failures on these under a 100k. As a dealer I rate these as ford #1 chrysler#2 and chevy #3 . Ford get first because of fuel milage. Chevy although better fuel milage than chrysler have a weak bottom end.
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Old 26 Jan 2014, 07:28 pm
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Default Re: Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geogee1 View Post
Guys, thanks for the reply, I'm not putting down PT Cruisers,

---Actually, yes you are. I don't know of any other way to interpret what you've said so far.---

its just that you don't hear catastrophic engine damage from Ford, GM, Toyota on engines below 100K mi.

---Actually yes, yes you do. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you aren't naive enough to really believe that other manufacturers have not had engine part failures. ---


I just wanted to hear from others that went through this, if Chrysler found out why the thrust bearings fail so early, and what they did to fix it.

---You detailed what they recommend to fix it in your own post above, sooooooo---

It might be less costly to replace with a crank kit, (unless the block got scored too much) but how long will that last? is there is a design flaw that exerts extra pressure on the thrust bearing?
If block is bad, I would be weary of purchasing a 2005-2007 engine if this sort of thing can happen,

---As CREWZIN said approximately 2,300,000 PTs were built and we've had very few incidents reported here of this happening.---

that is why I was wondering if the 2008 engine design is better or if Chrysler fixed this issue on it?
I also find it curious that you said nothing about there being any signs of oil leakage at the point when you initially tore it down. I'm taking for granted that since you are here now with comments and questions, that you would have stopped long enough at that point and posted here with the situation. So we can rule out any oil showing before your repair started. See where I'm going with this?

Moving on now.

Jerry
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Old 27 Jan 2014, 01:10 am
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Default Re: Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

All car manufacturers have had problems. Chevy had crankshaft thrust bearings issues on their old 2.8 V-6. Ford had problems with their V-8 sparkplugs/cylinder heads. Tokyota had broken valve springs in their V-6 engines. They cleverly called it a 'stalling issue'.

Thrust bearing wear could be caused by holding the clutch down for too long or by a throw out bearing not releasing fully. But it should not happen to an automatic trans car.

Since it happens more for certain years, it's probably a machining error or a defective/ill-chosen part.
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Old 27 Jan 2014, 09:41 am
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Default Re: Another 2007 failed engine: oil streaming - bad crankshaft thrust bearing

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt06 View Post
All car manufacturers have had problems. Chevy had crankshaft thrust bearings issues on their old 2.8 V-6. Ford had problems with their V-8 sparkplugs/cylinder heads. Tokyota had broken valve springs in their V-6 engines. They cleverly called it a 'stalling issue'.

Thrust bearing wear could be caused by holding the clutch down for too long or by a throw out bearing not releasing fully. But it should not happen to an automatic trans car.

Since it happens more for certain years, it's probably a machining error or a defective/ill-chosen part.
There have been reports on here from some that there was a change in the bearing and crank for those later years. But I have not definitive proof. That might account for this. It was mentioned in this thread earlier. Maybe uptown can shead some light on the subject. If he has any experience with the change.
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