PT Cruiser Forum  
Advertisements
       

Go Back   PT Cruiser Forum > General Forums > Tech & Performance Forum

PT Cruiser Forum

Advertisements
Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

 
Like Tree4Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 14 Dec 2014, 08:19 pm
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Slightly past nowhere, Texas
Posts: 34
Default Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

So... one of the joys of living in Texas is that the heat is just plain mean; it makes people mean, it makes batteries die young and I'm guessing it was a major contributor in the "Franken-Cruiser" kakking a timing belt well before the "Recommended Replacement Interval". At least, the discoloration of the snapped belt would indicate such.

Anyways... I'm at the halfway point; got to the point of taking the old belt off and now have my first good look at what I'm facing. Of course, I get the added joy of discovering that my particular failure is a "special case"; one of the cams is 180 out of time. My experience with rice rockets indicates that it's most likely the intake cam is 180 advanced; what I'm looking to ask anybody who's done a bunch of them on this motor and may have run into this is:

Can I get away with turning the intake cam back, or the exhaust cam forward to get the timing back to where it should be?

I know I SHOULD tear down the valve cover, loosen the camshaft caps and do it the hard way; but I'm already about ready to push this car off the nearest cliff and I was hoping for a little less misery than I've already "enjoyed".

Also... I was able to find a loaner crank pulley puller to get the bottom end apart, but no-one has the installer. This one was STILL a beast to get apart even with the fine-thread puller; I KNOW it's gonna go back on hard.

Anybody got any alternative solution to spending $95 just to use the installer once?

TIA,


mnem
My mother tried to teach me not to fall in love with my junk; I MIGHT be finally learning that lesson.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 14 Dec 2014, 08:53 pm
Busted_PT's Avatar
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Beckley, W.V.
Posts: 13,880
Default Re: Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnementh View Post
So... one of the joys of living in Texas is that the heat is just plain mean; it makes people mean, it makes batteries die young and I'm guessing it was a major contributor in the "Franken-Cruiser" kakking a timing belt well before the "Recommended Replacement Interval". At least, the discoloration of the snapped belt would indicate such.

Anyways... I'm at the halfway point; got to the point of taking the old belt off and now have my first good look at what I'm facing. Of course, I get the added joy of discovering that my particular failure is a "special case"; one of the cams is 180 out of time. My experience with rice rockets indicates that it's most likely the intake cam is 180 advanced; what I'm looking to ask anybody who's done a bunch of them on this motor and may have run into this is:

Can I get away with turning the intake cam back, or the exhaust cam forward to get the timing back to where it should be?

I know I SHOULD tear down the valve cover, loosen the camshaft caps and do it the hard way; but I'm already about ready to push this car off the nearest cliff and I was hoping for a little less misery than I've already "enjoyed".

Also... I was able to find a loaner crank pulley puller to get the bottom end apart, but no-one has the installer. This one was STILL a beast to get apart even with the fine-thread puller; I KNOW it's gonna go back on hard.

Anybody got any alternative solution to spending $95 just to use the installer once?

TIA,


mnem
My mother tried to teach me not to fall in love with my junk; I MIGHT be finally learning that lesson.
HARMONIC BALANCER & CRANK SPROCKET REMOVEL AND INSTALL TOOL AND TIPS!!!!

You can do what you need to to get the cams right. Just don't force things. Under these conditions they should not bump each other. Thank pics of the final alignment. You also can start it with it open and balancer off before buttoning up to test. The pics are of the alignment in the link is what you want. Anything other wont work. Let us know what else you need. The tools you ask for is in that link to.
767skyking likes this.
__________________

03 Dream stock___________________________ 04 Touring turbo lite stock_________ 02 Touring stock_____________________ The "Three Amigos"
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________Performance, Body and Service, OEM

This Is my project page.
http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/...oject-1-a.html

This is a great read from one of our own! Badglas
badglas.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 14 Dec 2014, 10:02 pm
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Slightly past nowhere, Texas
Posts: 34
Default Re: Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

Busted -

Thanks for the quick response; what you put together for a re-installer is actually what I was thinking of doing, only I was thinking of using a pipe coupler instead of a cut-off bit of pipe. I dunno if even a good coarse-thread puller would have gotten my pulley off; I broke a cheap coarse-thread one and the fine-thread one that did work was STILL a bear, even with a 1/2 ratchet.

I don't know if I can come up with a strut/radius arm washer anymore; I haven't worked as a mechanic for a LONG, LONG TIME and I no longer have any "buddies in the trade".

I MAY try butt-welding a couple of bolts together so I can use the bearing head from my Power Steering Pump Pulley Remover/Installer; if I do, I'll let y'all know how it works out and do pics.

I think I'm going to chance backing up the intake cam; hopefully I won't have any valves clash. As you say; slow & careful.


mnem
*Back to the grind*

Last edited by mnementh; 14 Dec 2014 at 10:05 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 14 Dec 2014, 10:14 pm
Busted_PT's Avatar
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Beckley, W.V.
Posts: 13,880
Default Re: Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnementh View Post
Busted -

Thanks for the quick response; what you put together for a re-installer is actually what I was thinking of doing, only I was thinking of using a pipe coupler instead of a cut-off bit of pipe. I dunno if even a good coarse-thread puller would have gotten my pulley off; I broke a cheap coarse-thread one and the fine-thread one that did work was STILL a bear, even with a 1/2 ratchet.

I don't know if I can come up with a strut/radius arm washer anymore; I haven't worked as a mechanic for a LONG, LONG TIME and I no longer have any "buddies in the trade".

I MAY try butt-welding a couple of bolts together so I can use the bearing head from my Power Steering Pump Pulley Remover/Installer; if I do, I'll let y'all know how it works out and do pics.

I think I'm going to chance backing up the intake cam; hopefully I won't have any valves clash. As you say; slow & careful.


mnem
*Back to the grind*
Any big flat peace of metal with a hole for the bolt will work. jJust something I had laying around. Stack some thinner washers or what ever.

They do come off hard. Mine did also.

Here is a bunch of help to If you haven't seen it.

HOW TO's
__________________

03 Dream stock___________________________ 04 Touring turbo lite stock_________ 02 Touring stock_____________________ The "Three Amigos"
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________Performance, Body and Service, OEM

This Is my project page.
http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/...oject-1-a.html

This is a great read from one of our own! Badglas
badglas.blogspot.com

Last edited by Busted_PT; 14 Dec 2014 at 10:16 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 15 Dec 2014, 12:44 am
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Slightly past nowhere, Texas
Posts: 34
Default Re: Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

OK...

Now I'm showing some progress. It's tore apart down to the seals; we're ALMOST at the point of putting parts back on.

One thing I found that I disagree with on your how-tos (Or at least the first one I skimmed over ) :

You don't need to break open the AC. It takes a little patience, but you can work the upper dogbone and the bracket it attaches to out of there without moving the AC lines. THAT's the hard part. Next is the Power Steering pump.

You're already draining the coolant to do the water pump; it's 30 minutes to unbutton the grille, tear down the upper core support and pull the radiator & fan, and that's taking time to sip my iced tea. Much better approach than risking contaminating a working AC system.

From there you've got plenty of room to get in with a zip gun for the power steering pump bolts; once that's loose and pulled to one side, undoing the motor mount bolt and the cast motor mount bracket are easy-peasy. Well, that is with a decent air ratchet; I'd probably have strangled myself with my own bootlaces by now if I had to work on this thing without my trusty Matco.

Take the time to undo the two bolts on the back of the motor that hold the Power Steering Fluid reservoir in place; I disconnected the return line from the rack and popped a 5/16" vacuum plug on the hose nipple real quick. Throw a towel on top of the alternator to catch the little bit of PS fluid that spills before you can get the plug on.

I think disconnecting the return line would be somewhat optional; but it gave me some extra latitude to move the power steering pump further so that the hose to the PS pump was out of the way for work in the area around the water pump.

Also, since removing the radiator makes enough room that you can get to the front water pump bolts with a wrench, you don't need to remove the serpentine belt tensioner.

As I didn't feel like making a "cam sprocket tool" to undo the cam bolts, I used a trick I'd learned working on Hondas; take a 1/4" drive deep-well 8mm (or 5/16") socket on a long extension and stick it through the cam sprocket onto the head of the back timing cover bolt there.

Hold the other end of the long extension against a scrap of 2x4 in the fenderwell under those pesky AC lines and turn the cam bolt with an 18mm socket on a 1/2" ratchet until the rib of the sprocket contacts the 1/4" extension and puts enough pressure to hold it against the 2x4; then let go of the extension and 2x4 and put both hands on the ratchet to break it free. Easy-peasy, and you don't risk breaking up the plastic of the back timing cover with a screwdriver jammed in there instead.

I'll post back here if I run into anything else that might help someone finish this job instead of "Fixing it with Fire"...


mnem
*On the downhill side...*

Last edited by mnementh; 15 Dec 2014 at 01:52 am.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 20 Dec 2014, 10:43 pm
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Slightly past nowhere, Texas
Posts: 34
Default Re: Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

So... after the joy of working all week with the flu, I get to come home to the joy of finishing this job on my holiday weekend.

Actually, good progress today; took my time and worked at a leisurely pace, lots of breaks to be nice to my already aching back, and still I went from stripped down to the bare block waiting on parts to new upper engine mount installed, new seals installed, and the full Gates timing kit installed and new belt in place. In fact, things went too well; the new belt just slipped on, so I'm pretty sure that even though it LOOKS right, it isn't.

I've decided to let discretion be the better part of mechanicking, and wait until the morning when light of day and a fresh night's sleep can better clarify the situation.

Thanks for your help, and thanks again to whomever is responsible for keeping that .pdf service manual up online. Copied over to my cheap Chinese tablet, it's actually easy to use and right there when I need it.


Cheers,


mnem
Rollin'.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 21 Dec 2014, 12:37 am
quicksilverdon's Avatar
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Felton, Delaware
Posts: 20,501
Default Re: Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

Good show and I hope it looks good in morning's light.
__________________
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life,
nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
Isaac Asimov"

'05 Limited Turbo Lite, (Silver, of course)4-wheel ABS, Sunroof, Spoiler. Mods: E&G Classic grill, K&N FIPK, BTG duals, rear lowered 1.5", LED washer lights, $20 catch can, Aoogah horn, Weatherflectors, Sunroof Deflector, Fuzzy Dice, rear logo flames, rear pinstripe graphic, Gen3 Taillights, rear sway bar, hood struts, Strut bar.
Traded in '02 Silver Touring Edition w/87,000 miles
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 21 Dec 2014, 11:28 am
UptownSport's Avatar
Veteran Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 55403
Posts: 3,912
Default Re: Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnementh View Post
As I didn't feel like making a "cam sprocket tool" to undo the cam bolts, I used a trick I'd learned working on Hondas; take a 1/4" drive deep-well 8mm (or 5/16") socket on a long extension and stick it through the cam sprocket onto the head of the back timing cover bolt there.
Wish I woulda said that ...

You can also wedge something between cam gear, or use holes in cam

You Should do a write up.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 21 Dec 2014, 12:03 pm
Busted_PT's Avatar
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Beckley, W.V.
Posts: 13,880
Default Re: Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

Quote:
Originally Posted by UptownSport View Post
Wish I woulda said that ...

You can also wedge something between cam gear, or use holes in cam

You Should do a write up.
The rubber door stop wedge works great for this. Not my original idea. Someone on here said it sometime in the last 3 years.
__________________

03 Dream stock___________________________ 04 Touring turbo lite stock_________ 02 Touring stock_____________________ The "Three Amigos"
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________Performance, Body and Service, OEM

This Is my project page.
http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/...oject-1-a.html

This is a great read from one of our own! Badglas
badglas.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03 Jan 2015, 07:41 pm
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Slightly past nowhere, Texas
Posts: 34
Default Re: Timing Belt at 87K; We're having fun NOW... :-/

So...

It's been a while since we started this project; foul weather and the Holidays conspired to keep me away from it until this afternoon. I'm at the point now where I've test run and it started right up and seemed to run well, so time to start buttoning things up.

FRANKEN-CRUISER LIVES!!!

For the benefit of others, here are a few pics to add to the body of reference:



Lower timing mark; right at trailing edge of tooth as shown in service manual. Here you can see daddy's little helper; a 4" x 4" bit of folded-up corrugated cardboard used as a wedge to prevent the belt coming loose from the sprocket while I work with it. Yes, I removed it before turning the motor.



Another tip learned while working on Hondas; use Office Supply binder clips (The small ones, about 3/4"-19mm wide) to keep the belt from backing off under load while you slip the belt over the tensioner. These things combined are still not quite as good as a 3rd hand; but they do allow you to get the job done with only the two most of us were born with.

I found that a 3" x 3" square of plastic cut from a 2 liter soda bottle slipped between the belt and tensioner pulley as a shim greatly aid slipping the belt over the edge of the tensioner pulley. Once the belt is on, there's plenty of clearance to slip the plastic out from under the belt. I wish I'd taken a picture of that, but alas, it was one of those "using all my hands and then some" moments; really no way to click the picture and do it too.



Upper timing marks after rotating the engine 2 full revolutions and setting the crank timing mark as above again, as per the manual. On a Honda, you'll be able to put a straightedge across all 4 marks and they'll line up with the centerline of the camshafts. With the 2.4 Neon engine, not so much. I tried moving the exhaust cam one tooth; it left the marks almost a full tooth below centerline instead of 1/4 tooth above. Meh.



Tensioner after 2 revolutions by hand. It looks a little bit on the tight side to me; but after seeing Busted's pic from his How-To, it looks exactly the same to me.

Busted, whadda you think? I'm pretty close to done for the night; it's been a long day.


mnem
*On the downhill side*
Busted_PT likes this.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Correct Timing Belt timing ? With pictures SwedeRacer Tech & Performance Forum 13 08 Jul 2014 10:23 am
Did we messed up the timing while changing the timing belt ?? matt Tech & Performance Forum 5 02 Oct 2013 01:52 pm
Timing belt shield, belt replacement. jdwalk04 Tech & Performance Forum 13 14 May 2012 10:01 am
Belt change help - Not timing belt skfloyd Tech & Performance Forum 2 23 Apr 2010 11:23 am
Timing Belt notadodge Tech & Performance Forum 11 25 Nov 2008 09:37 am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:49 pm.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2 © 2011, Crawlability, Inc.
vB.Sponsors