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A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

 
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 22 Jun 2019, 12:41 pm
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Default Re: A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

Quote:
I have not completed this procedure myself on a running PT.
Pretty sure you would ruin the engine and lose some fingers trying to do this on a 'running' PT! That Volvo commercial where they pull up along side and replace all sorts of parts on the car is fake!

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 22 Jun 2019, 12:48 pm
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Default Re: A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

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Originally Posted by thehoghunter View Post
Pretty sure you would ruin the engine and lose some fingers trying to do this on a 'running' PT! That Volvo commercial where they pull up along side and replace all sorts of parts on the car is fake!

Good point. But not the case for me. Here's a shot of my 2005 PT GT belt tensioner adjustment while the engine is running, fingers not withstanding.

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Old 22 Jun 2019, 01:45 pm
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Default Re: A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

Keep in mind that some members have noted attempting many "shortcut " methods on junk yard or other donor engines using as experimenting procedures with.


I have changed at least 6 pairs of cam sets on PT Cruiser and can tell you short cuts in the procedure are really not worth trying only to save labor time as a DIY!!!

Soooooo if you follow the shortcut and you fail ...can't say you were not warned.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy_Cruiser View Post
Removing the camshafts is going to make the job a whole lot easier. .

^^ ^^
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Old 22 Jun 2019, 02:31 pm
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Default Re: A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

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Originally Posted by NitroPT View Post
Keep in mind that some members have noted attempting many "shortcut " methods on junk yard or other donor engines using as experimenting procedures with.


I have changed at least 6 pairs of cam sets on PT Cruiser and can tell you short cuts in the procedure are really not worth trying only to save labor time as a DIY!!!

Soooooo if you follow the shortcut and you fail ...can't say you were not warned.
^^ ^^

I have made the same warning several times already. I also believe we've already instilled enough caution in those less risk tolerant or less skilled. And I agree with that part of your sentiment. I do not agree that saving labor by an order of 8 times or greater is not a good thing.

Doing routine mechanic work doesn't qualify us to just make general conclusions about new methods without specific reasons. In fact, discussion of those specific reasons is a major purpose of this thread. Like I said, we don't know what we don't know. But if we can filter through the fear and unfounded incredulation (general unwillingness to believe new things), together we may be able to figure out at least some of the specific things we don't yet know. So the next attempt can be more focused at controlling those issues.

If you have additional specific reasons why this will not work, please provide them so they can be discussed.
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Old 22 Jun 2019, 03:32 pm
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Default Re: A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

it only takes rebuilding one aluminum 4-stroke head to know the issue. and its been said- it will fubar the thing. by all means give it a go. no one has been cruel, petty or such. its not about convincing the one who proposes such things that its folly... its about preventing other members from even considering it.


the first anomaly to consider is the cam goes through just enough hell during re-assembly working down multiple valve springs. it must be tightened down very straight and square or bolt threads will strip and round journals will be smashed and you will bend the cam. I guarantee it. id still love to hear how (and when) one would reseat the oil seal. good experienced mechanics are good because from experience they can visualize each step...has nothing to do with IQ. these short cuts come across as "post bong load logic" or some lazy corner cutter that wants it NOW. even if it is after all is said and done- 18 days later.


anyone ever read the book about the donner party? one of the survivors was asked-


"what did you learn after all of this?" to which she replied-

"hurry along just as fast as you can and never take no short cuts"


im sure she wasn't grinning when she said that...
NitroPT likes this.

Last edited by rambojoe; 22 Jun 2019 at 03:34 pm.
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Old 22 Jun 2019, 05:54 pm
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Default Re: A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

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Originally Posted by rambojoe View Post
it only takes rebuilding one aluminum 4-stroke head to know the issue. and its been said- it will fubar the thing. by all means give it a go. no one has been cruel, petty or such. its not about convincing the one who proposes such things that its folly... its about preventing other members from even considering it.


the first anomaly to consider is the cam goes through just enough hell during re-assembly working down multiple valve springs. it must be tightened down very straight and square or bolt threads will strip and round journals will be smashed and you will bend the cam. I guarantee it. id still love to hear how (and when) one would reseat the oil seal. good experienced mechanics are good because from experience they can visualize each step...has nothing to do with IQ. these short cuts come across as "post bong load logic" or some lazy corner cutter that wants it NOW. even if it is after all is said and done- 18 days later.


anyone ever read the book about the donner party? one of the survivors was asked-


"what did you learn after all of this?" to which she replied-

"hurry along just as fast as you can and never take no short cuts"


im sure she wasn't grinning when she said that...
Since I addressed the camshaft seals in my original posts, you've not really added anything new to this conversation so far. All this talk of stress on the cams and heads is not founded in facts but only supposition that is counter to what we know. But I appreciate your opinions. So here are the answers to your suppositions.

1. As soon as you point out the member of the Donner party that worked on cars, I will accept that reference as meaningful.

2. I've had PT cams out many times. I've also measure about a dozen of them. The tolerance on the camshaft are very good and fairly consistant but there's lots of slop in the aluminum head journals. They just don't fit very tight. The first time I ever did one of these little toy aluminum heads, I was really surprised there were no cam bearings. And there is no "hell' on the cam during installation. In a PT, you can push the valves springs pretty easily with a hand tool. And torquing the caps is a litteraly a five minute job. You can even remove most of the rockers without removing the cam if you have the right tool. As a side note, shimming the lifters to bring them up to nominal pre-load can allow re-gound cams to work very well.

3. The tension on the timing belt is pretty weak. You can hold the cam in place with one hand pretty easily while installing the caps. So I'm not sure what your are talking about with all this stress on the valve train parts. It's just not there in these little PT engines. All the tensioner is there for is to keep the timing belt from being loose. On the early, 2.4L Chrysler engines, this was done primarily with oil pressure.

4. On the issue of the seals, I've already covered that. And true enough, that was my biggest concern going in. But the journals for those seals have plenty of room so the seal is not ruined during cam install. I was surprised it that. But that's the benefit of doing instead of just speculating.

5. I don't agree with you that mechanics have low IQ's. Some of the smartest guys I know work on cars, trucks and equipment. That fact that some of the people on this forum are pretty smart doesn't mean that other people other places are not. Let's not put folks down. The majority of the best shortcuts for automotive repair come from seasoned mechanics.

6. If you cannot understand my logic here, I likely cannot help you. For many, having a workable shortcut that saves you one to two days of hard work is a good thing. Taking the full time allotted by some service manual is only beneficial for someone trying to make a payday out of a customer. And even then, it's often a short-sighted business decision in my opinion.

Thanks for your input.

If you have any more specifics based on facts, please share them. For me, the biggest unknown is going to be if the belt stays in place below the cover while all this top side work is going on.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 23 Jun 2019, 09:06 am
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Default Re: A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

I am very surprised given the background of some on this thread doing a procedure that a few of us have already deemed a BAD IDEA want to debate and try to make point that it is alright?

ITS NOT !!!


Perhaps and I only say this for point of support if it were a NEW engine with all NEW parts being raced in competition and that a NEW part failed during an event , and that engine and car needed to continue to another round, so by repairing the failed NEW part and taking any means necessary to replace or repair it before the next scheduled round or event based on a lot of practical and educated experience working around engine and more so the specific engine with the failed NEW part then by all means take short cuts. But do so knowing that the out come may get you qualified for another race day and may keep the engine together long enough to qualify that shortcut may only have been a temporary fix and the repair and replacement of yet another NEW part will need to be done at a later time and the correct way without short cuts!!!!




One other thing to note: The Chrysler 2.4 has been in production for several years and a decade or so...over 2 million of these engines have been manufactured by CHRYSLER yet no TSB, Technical write up by qualified Auto Technician or trained mechanic, no you tube video of a service technician, no other DIY only on this forum and one member in all the world has shown a "SHORT CUT" regarding the camshafts!


Sorry the debate or argument stands only that like many described methods of repair the best is to take your time and do it by the methods designed for success and not chance!
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 23 Jun 2019, 02:41 pm
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Default Re: A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

I appreciate your input. But it doesn't offer any specifics. You will need to make specific arguments on the actual mechanics of this proposed procedure rather than just give generalities. As a rebuttal, I will remind you that both of us have demonstrated very successful techniques in the past that no one else has yet shown on this or any other PT forum and that would never appear in a service manual. That's part of the magic of internet forums.
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 10:36 am
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Default Re: A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy_Cruiser View Post
I appreciate your input. But it doesn't offer any specifics. You will need to make specific arguments on the actual mechanics of this proposed procedure rather than just give generalities. As a rebuttal, I will remind you that both of us have demonstrated very successful techniques in the past that no one else has yet shown on this or any other PT forum and that would never appear in a service manual. That's part of the magic of internet forums.
Your argument IMO only seems to self support your personal efforts at defending your committed responses.

The BIG difference between you and I is that I do not post short cuts on a none professional mechanical technical forum like this that a majority of the member's do not have the same level experience or specialized training and will most likely not have the same success in performing some tasks in a none specific procedure advised to follow by the manufacture. If they were to get into a snag because of the short cut followed on a thread like this may not be able to correct a mistake by referring to a proper service procedure.

You want to have others that really are simply trying to advise that a DIY should be better off to follow a standard service procedure and post what we see as a specific flaw or mistake in your postings so you can argue them away.


Ok...I think I have made my point more then once.....

I love this thread I started below as it will at least give some pause to consider when reading any thread related procedure or advise from any forum member!!
Car Repair Advice Forum= at your own risk

Car Repair Advice Forum= at your own risk

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 24 Jun 2019, 01:51 pm
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Default Re: A Potential Shortcut for Removing And Installing PT Camshafts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroPT View Post
Your argument IMO only seems to self support your personal efforts at defending your committed responses.

The BIG difference between you and I is that I do not post short cuts on a none professional mechanical technical forum like this that a majority of the member's do not have the same level experience or specialized training and will most likely not have the same success in performing some tasks in a none specific procedure advised to follow by the manufacture. If they were to get into a snag because of the short cut followed on a thread like this may not be able to correct a mistake by referring to a proper service procedure.

You want to have others that really are simply trying to advise that a DIY should be better off to follow a standard service procedure and post what we see as a specific flaw or mistake in your postings so you can argue them away.


Ok...I think I have made my point more then once.....

I love this thread I started below as it will at least give some pause to consider when reading any thread related procedure or advise from any forum member!!
Car Repair Advice Forum= at your own risk

Car Repair Advice Forum= at your own risk

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry Nitro, but I don't believe you are giving our community here enough credit. Most members here are not "whooples". At this late point in the PT Cruiser game, most have some mechanical skill in order to keep their aging PT running far past it's designed lifespan.

No one here is advocating a shortcut yet. The purpose of this thread is to share what I know and hopefully discuss possible pitfalls. You have offered no such pitfalls. You have only offered your opinion based on the nothing more than you think a few members here are smarter than everyone else. That's just not the case and it's off subject.

I know you enjoy sparing with me no matter the subject. It seems to turn you on. But please don't infer that the forum members here are a bunch of idiots and couldn't make a shortcut work even if you or I could with ease. No one here is ready to recommend this until we prove it to be successful end to end. And then we can provide detailed steps so others can decide the best method for themselves. That's what it's all about. Sharing what we know and what we learn. And that journey never ends.

PS: When I came here five years ago, PT Cruisers were everywhere. Now, many days can go by before I see one on the road. Like the once ubiquitous Ford Pinto that suddenly vanished, the PT Cruiser doesn't seem to have much staying power. More and more, the owners of our cars are going to have to have some skills to keep them going. For the magnificent many that once owned PT Cruisers, we are quickly becoming the last of the dedicated few.
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