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2005 GT slowly dying

 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09 Jun 2017, 09:55 am
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NoVA
Posts: 22
Default 2005 GT slowly dying

Greetings all.

I have a 2005 GT manual, 72k on the clock, which is either slowly dying or already dead. It is sitting in the driveway and will not start, nor am I able to pull any codes from the PCM.

History:

Timing belt and clutch were replaced at 69k miles about a year ago and the car ran fine for some time after. I started having problems with the clutch pedal shortly thereafter, so I replaced the bushing and all was well.

About three months ago, I started experiencing random no-start episodes; checked the safety switch and it was fine. Last month, I started having random engine shutdowns while driving which eventually turned on a P2074 code. While researching and diagnosing that problem, the car began either a) cranking without starting, or b) not cranking at all.

Here are the current symptoms:
1. I am unable to pull codes from the PCM using two different OBD-II dongles. The app on my phone will connect to the dongle, but the dongle can't establish communication with the PCM. I've verified that the dongles work using another vehicle.
2. Doing the keydance yields no codes or "done" on the odometer, although the door chime does ding a "52" code like the pre-OBD II Mopars used to do.
3. When turning the key "on", all the dash lights come on. The battery light then goes off, the alarm LED flashes, the ABS light goes off then comes back on (both with a "ding"), the CEL goes off then back on with one "ding", the ABS light flashes with two "dings", then finally the alarm, CEL, Traction Control, and ABS lights come on solid.
4. Sometimes the fuel pump will prime, sometimes it won't, and sometimes it'll keep running with the switch "on" even though the engine isn't running.
5. Leaving the battery connected all night sometimes drains the battery and sometimes not. I've charged and checked the battery.

I suspect that I'm chasing an intermittent connection somewhere (yippee!) or perhaps a failing PCM. Other than tracing all the wires in the engine compartment, does anyone have any suggestions on diagnosis?

I've searched the "no-start" threads here but didn't find anything quite like this situation.

Thanks!
__________________
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The fleet:
'05 PT GT, 2.4T
'99 Neon R/T (x2, for now)
'94 Lebaron 3.0/A604
'91 Lebaron 2.5TI/A413
'91 Spirit R/T
'91 Daytona ES 3.0/A543
and a '98 Ram 1500 4x4 to tow 'em all around...
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 09 Jun 2017, 10:35 am
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 7,298
Default Re: 2005 GT slowly dying

P0274 = Manifold Pressure / Throttle Position Correlation; High Flow & Vacuum Leak

Possible Causes:

1. Vacuum leak in hoses or component connections
2. High resistance or resistance to ground in MAP 5 volt supply or signal circuit
3. MAP Sensor has failed
4. High resistance in MAP ground circuit
5. Throttle Position Sensor has failed or is improperly adjusted
6. High resistance or resistance to ground in Throttle Position Sensor 5 volt supply or signal circuit
7. High resistance in Throttle Position Sensor ground circuit
8. PCM has failed

Check all the vacuum hoses.

1. Inspect the Intake Manifold for leaks and cracks.
2. Inspect the Power Brake Booster for any vacuum leaks.
3. Inspect the PCV system for proper operation or any vacuum leaks.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 09 Jun 2017, 12:11 pm
Senior Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: SW PA
Posts: 1,336
Default Re: 2005 GT slowly dying

One of the first things is checking the battery terminals and cables, make sure there is no corrosion. Remove terminals and shine the terminals and battery connections while removing all traces of acid.
Proceed on to the ground connections on the left fender. If you can, I did, pry open the ground connector and remove all the wires. You may want to cut the ends off and strip the insulation off about 3/4 inch to clean copper wire. Buy several new eyelets and you can use two of the smaller wires onto each eyelet.
I soldered mine to the eyelets. You may be able to reuse the larger eyelet for the large wires if you clean the contact area.
See if it makes any difference.
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65 Dodge Coronet 6 cyl 2dr Post
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70 340 4spd Dart Swinger "Those were the days my friend"
73 Charger SE
Had a few Vetts on the way 69, 85
Several Neons some flips
01 Sebring flip
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 09 Jun 2017, 02:07 pm
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NoVA
Posts: 22
Default Re: 2005 GT slowly dying

Diagnosis done today:

-- Verified that fuel pump is working by sending +12V directly to the pump as suggested here: 2005 PT Cruiser no start.
-- Verified the starter and starter solenoid are working by jumping +12V directly to the terminal in the PDC
-- Verified that the ignition switch is sending +12V to the starter relay when switch is in the "Start" position
-- Cleaned the grounds as JoeX suggested, other than disassembling the crimped terminals as those connections looked clean (and I was getting good battery voltage when referenced to ground points on the engine)
-- Bypassed the clutch interlock switch, but still no crank
-- Disconnected, cleaned, and reconnected the PCM multiwire connectors
-- Inspected wiring harnesses for signs of damage but found none
-- Noted that the PCM is not sending a ground signal to the starter relay when the ignition switch is in the "Start" position (both before and after bypassing the interlock switch)

At this point, I am becoming convinced that there is either a hidden wiring issue or the PCM has gone faulty in some way. As the latter is a rather rare (and expensive) fix, I'd rather convince on simpler possibilities first.

ptcruisersteve -- thank you for the P2074 information; other than some of the electrically related items, I'm not sure it's my primary issue at the moment.

Thanks for any other ideas...
Gkon likes this.
__________________
---
The fleet:
'05 PT GT, 2.4T
'99 Neon R/T (x2, for now)
'94 Lebaron 3.0/A604
'91 Lebaron 2.5TI/A413
'91 Spirit R/T
'91 Daytona ES 3.0/A543
and a '98 Ram 1500 4x4 to tow 'em all around...
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 09 Jun 2017, 03:36 pm
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 7,298
Default Re: 2005 GT slowly dying

I would suggest checking the wiring behind the data link connector. Other members have had problems with the wiring.
Data Link Connector 1a.JPG
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08 Aug 2017, 12:42 pm
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NoVA
Posts: 22
Default Re: 2005 GT slowly dying

After some time away due to other commitments, I'm back at trying to figure out why this GT won't start. I'm still unable to communicate with the PCM using different OBD-II adapters.

I've again checked the following, just in case I missed something the first time:

-- Verified that fuel pump is working by sending +12V directly to the pump as suggested here: http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/...tml#post627931
-- Verified the starter and starter solenoid are working by jumping +12V directly to the terminal in the PDC
-- Verified that the ignition switch is sending +12V to the starter relay when switch is in the "Start" position
-- Inspected wiring harnesses for signs of damage but found none (including the datalink connector as ptcruisersteve suggested)
-- Noted that the PCM is not sending a ground signal to the starter relay when the ignition switch is in the "Start" position (both before and after bypassing the interlock switch), nor is it sending a ground signal to the fuel pump relay

I did acquire a parasitic drain test harness to verify that the parasitic drain is within normal parameters (2A while interior lights are on, dropping to 50mA after lights go off, then down to 10mA after 30 mins).

One new behavior observed: after attempting to start, I sometimes hear a "ding" sequence of 5 slow dings, followed by 6 faster dings, then 2 slower dings. All of the dash warning lamps and indicators are behaving normally otherwise.

I think the PCM is trying to tell me something, but I just don't understand it...or else it's just spewing gibberish. I'm beginning to think it's time to go PCM shopping.
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The fleet:
'05 PT GT, 2.4T
'99 Neon R/T (x2, for now)
'94 Lebaron 3.0/A604
'91 Lebaron 2.5TI/A413
'91 Spirit R/T
'91 Daytona ES 3.0/A543
and a '98 Ram 1500 4x4 to tow 'em all around...
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08 Aug 2017, 02:39 pm
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,328
Default Re: 2005 GT slowly dying

This might help, might not...post #3.

https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...15/chime-4103/
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08 Aug 2017, 05:19 pm
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NoVA
Posts: 22
Default Re: 2005 GT slowly dying

Guess this one falls into the category of "one step forward, two steps back".

Taking a cue from this post, I decided to investigate the behavior of the security light. Sure enough, it was remaining "on" after the ignition switch was turned on. I pulled the shroud off the steering column and disconnected, then reconnected, the SKIM module connector.

This action resulted in a car that started and ran...for about 5 minutes, then died without warning. My OBD II dongle successfully connected to the PCM while it was running, but of course there were no stored (or pending) codes.

Attempting to restart over the course of an hour or so proved fruitless, even with disconnecting and re-connecting the SKIM. I did check for voltage on that connector and found +12V in the right places.

After sitting for about 2-3 hours, it decided to start again. This time, it ran at idle for 15+ minutes until dying without warning again. Cycling the key a few more times again produced no results except that now the fuel pump would prime every other cycle or so. In fact, the last time I cycled the key the pump continued to run even though the engine wasn't running.

I didn't mention it in previous posts, but the PCM, SKIM, and keys are all the originals installed and configured at the factory.

Based on this afternoon's first start, I was ready to explore replacing the SKIM. Now, I'm going back to my original belief that there is some sort of intermittent PCM issue.

LionPT: thank you for the link.
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__________________
---
The fleet:
'05 PT GT, 2.4T
'99 Neon R/T (x2, for now)
'94 Lebaron 3.0/A604
'91 Lebaron 2.5TI/A413
'91 Spirit R/T
'91 Daytona ES 3.0/A543
and a '98 Ram 1500 4x4 to tow 'em all around...
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 10 Aug 2017, 07:13 am
Senior Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,611
Default Re: 2005 GT slowly dying

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffhambone View Post
Guess this one falls into the category of "one step forward, two steps back".

Taking a cue from this post, I decided to investigate the behavior of the security light. Sure enough, it was remaining "on" after the ignition switch was turned on. I pulled the shroud off the steering column and disconnected, then reconnected, the SKIM module connector.

This action resulted in a car that started and ran...for about 5 minutes, then died without warning. My OBD II dongle successfully connected to the PCM while it was running, but of course there were no stored (or pending) codes.

Attempting to restart over the course of an hour or so proved fruitless, even with disconnecting and re-connecting the SKIM. I did check for voltage on that connector and found +12V in the right places.

After sitting for about 2-3 hours, it decided to start again. This time, it ran at idle for 15+ minutes until dying without warning again. Cycling the key a few more times again produced no results except that now the fuel pump would prime every other cycle or so. In fact, the last time I cycled the key the pump continued to run even though the engine wasn't running.

I didn't mention it in previous posts, but the PCM, SKIM, and keys are all the originals installed and configured at the factory.

Based on this afternoon's first start, I was ready to explore replacing the SKIM. Now, I'm going back to my original belief that there is some sort of intermittent PCM issue.

LionPT: thank you for the link.
I too think your issue is probably a failing PCM. I have come across a very similar issue on one of the yard GT pcms I bought. Sometimes the security light would come on. Sometimes not. Sometimes it would fail to start. What worked sometimes was turning the key all the way to start without pressing on the clutch. This would allow the pcm to fully power up. Then without turning the key off, press the clutch and turn the key to start again.

If you need help finding a good pcm, send me a pm.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 11 Aug 2017, 10:58 am
Fresh Cruiser
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NoVA
Posts: 22
Default Re: 2005 GT slowly dying

Quote:
Originally Posted by myckee View Post
I too think your issue is probably a failing PCM. I have come across a very similar issue on one of the yard GT pcms I bought. Sometimes the security light would come on. Sometimes not. Sometimes it would fail to start. What worked sometimes was turning the key all the way to start without pressing on the clutch. This would allow the pcm to fully power up. Then without turning the key off, press the clutch and turn the key to start again.

If you need help finding a good pcm, send me a pm.
PM sent. I tried the starting method you suggested, but no luck. The PCM will happily run the fuel pump continuously even without the engine running, until I turn off the key. I think it's gone just a bit mad.
__________________
---
The fleet:
'05 PT GT, 2.4T
'99 Neon R/T (x2, for now)
'94 Lebaron 3.0/A604
'91 Lebaron 2.5TI/A413
'91 Spirit R/T
'91 Daytona ES 3.0/A543
and a '98 Ram 1500 4x4 to tow 'em all around...
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