PT Cruiser Forum  
Advertisements
       

Go Back   PT Cruiser Forum > General Forums > Tech & Performance Forum

PT Cruiser Forum

Advertisements
Gearbox oil?

 
Like Tree7Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 30 Oct 2017, 09:55 am
Fk5 Fk5 is offline
Senior Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cloverly, MD
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Gearbox oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnitD77 View Post
OHHH YES THERE IS. ATF doesn't even list a weight because thats not what it is for.

ATF is basically a fluid with detergents in it. The whole point of ATF is to provide a liquid for pressure and detergents to clean stuff. Which in a Manual it doesn't even get used for pressure.

Engine Oil has multitudes of uses, Cooling, Lubrication, Multiweight features, ect.

They are not interchangeable. If they were, you would see a universal fluid you just put into one reservoir that powered everything.

Do not mix ATF with Engine Oil.
It's funny, but this post seems to be telling people ATF wouldn't be good for a manual, but many of our manual trans cars spec it from the factory. Same for power steering. I think Chrysler has been trying to use the ATF+4 as a universal lubricant. I'm not sure it is the best thing to use in a manual trans car. I am long overdue to change mine, but I haven't decided what to use.

FWIW, Redline recommends their C+ATF which meets the ATF+4 requirements, not their manual transmission lubricant which is synthetic gear oil. I think for the old T1 cars they used to recommend some type of MTL.

According to Modern Performance, under their listing for ATF+4:
Quote:
Please note: This is the fluid recommended by Mopar for the vehicles above. If you drive your car very hard, a Chrysler Engineer that we work with quite a bit has recommended the use of Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w/30 with ZDDP or Zinc dithiophosphate which helps protect the gear surfaces better under high heat conditions.
More than likely it was Ed Peters, though I believe he was saying 5W30.
https://www.modernperformance.com/pr...in-maintenance
__________________
2003 GT 5 speed
150,000 miles

Last edited by Fk5; 30 Oct 2017 at 09:57 am.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 30 Oct 2017, 11:28 pm
Young Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: North Tucson Area, AZ
Posts: 63
Default Re: Gearbox oil?

Quote:
I was part of Team Shelby back in the day (mid to late 80's) . We used Mobil 1 5w-30 synthetic for the race car (G- body Daytona) trans with no issues. Will work just fine in a PT daily driver. My 02 manual trans I used Walmart Super Tech 5w-30 at 100,000 miles and actually shifts smoother now and cheaper. The extra I used in my John Deere engine 2000 13hp no issues.....
Me too. Actually I use Walmart 5W-30 Full Synthetic oil. Less noise, smoother shifting.
__________________
2001 PT Cruiser Limited Edition 5-Speed MT, stock. Second owner since 06/2016
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 31 Oct 2017, 10:50 am
Cool Cruiser
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Oswego, IL
Posts: 307
Default Re: Gearbox oil?

Just because it is called "automatic" transmission fluid, doesn't mean it can't be used in a manual. Fluid in a manual transmission is mostly there for cooling, not lubricating (yes it does lubricate a bit).

I said before, and say again now. The manufacturer has many much mucho testing done to decide what fluids to put in which place. If they specify ATF+4, that's what you should be using. You have to remember, this isn't the 80's anymore, the tolerances for everything have gotten much tighter.

To illustrate my point. the new Chrysler engine the "MultiAir" engines (found in the darts and such) don't have a intake cam, but instead use a solenoid to open and close the intake valves, and are powered by oil pressure. SO if you don't use the exact oil specified by the manufacturer, your intake valves fail to open properly and I know you all know what can happen when your valves don't open like they should.

Point being, there is recommendations from the factory as what you should use. Using ANYTHING else, is strictly AT YOUR OWN RISK. Just because some guy who talked with some guy who used to work with Chrysler (probably in the call center not engineering) said that this one thing is a good idea if you can't shift properly, doesn't mean you should use it.
__________________
2004 Stage 1 GT Manual, Miles: 84k
Lowered Suspension, Sway bars, sound system W/Mopar Sub, LEDs, Debadged, Hydraulic hood struts, Hybrid BOV.

05' N/A Automatic Red PT Mileage:121k (Died summer 2017)
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 31 Oct 2017, 11:10 am
rckstein's Avatar
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Euless, TX
Posts: 12,012
Default Re: Gearbox oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnitD77 View Post
Just because it is called "automatic" transmission fluid, doesn't mean it can't be used in a manual. Fluid in a manual transmission is mostly there for cooling, not lubricating (yes it does lubricate a bit).

I said before, and say again now. The manufacturer has many much mucho testing done to decide what fluids to put in which place. If they specify ATF+4, that's what you should be using. You have to remember, this isn't the 80's anymore, the tolerances for everything have gotten much tighter.

To illustrate my point. the new Chrysler engine the "MultiAir" engines (found in the darts and such) don't have a intake cam, but instead use a solenoid to open and close the intake valves, and are powered by oil pressure. SO if you don't use the exact oil specified by the manufacturer, your intake valves fail to open properly and I know you all know what can happen when your valves don't open like they should.

Point being, there is recommendations from the factory as what you should use. Using ANYTHING else, is strictly AT YOUR OWN RISK. Just because some guy who talked with some guy who used to work with Chrysler (probably in the call center not engineering) said that this one thing is a good idea if you can't shift properly, doesn't mean you should use it.
This is sure to start a debate, but the selection of motor oil was also recently brought up in a couple of other threads. What the manufacturer states in their manuals is what I follow, as the manufacturer knows best what to use in their products as they've done all the necessary testing. If anyone wants to use something else and then send a sample off to a lab for testing, when you get the results back, providing the normal every-day driver will be able to interpret and understand what those oil analysis results are telling you, there could already have been damage caused to those components where an alternate fluid had been used.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php

There was an article that was referenced by another member in another thread:

How To Pick The Right Motor Oil - Engine Oil For Your Car

In several places in the article is states:

"...pick the viscosity (thickness) that's suitable for the temperatures your vehicle normally operates in (check your owners manual)..."

"What's really important is that you use the oil viscosity your car's owner's manual recommends."

"If you read your owner's manual, you'll know what the car manufacturer recommends for a brand-new vehicle."
__________________

'06 Touring Edition NA Automatic
150k Miles / Electric Blue Pearl
USMC '82 - '93

Last edited by rckstein; 31 Oct 2017 at 11:19 am.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 31 Oct 2017, 11:34 am
Cool Cruiser
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Oswego, IL
Posts: 307
Default Re: Gearbox oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rckstein View Post
This is sure to start a debate
AND START IT WILL!!!!
actually I only have a brief response.

yes the recommended oil weight does change based on usage environment, but not always. The PT recommends *goes out to car to get Owners Manual* With temperatures below 100 degrees F, 5W-30. Above 0 Degrees F it also says 10W-30 is acceptable, but 5W-30 is prefered.

Page 252 of owners manual "SAE 5W-30 engine oil is preferred. SAE 5W-30 engine oils improve low temperature starting and helps vehicle fuel economy."

So, can you use 10W-30. Yes, If your anticipated usage temperature is above 0 degrees. If your usage occurs below 0 degrees, it is recommended (and preferred) to use 5W-30.
__________________
2004 Stage 1 GT Manual, Miles: 84k
Lowered Suspension, Sway bars, sound system W/Mopar Sub, LEDs, Debadged, Hydraulic hood struts, Hybrid BOV.

05' N/A Automatic Red PT Mileage:121k (Died summer 2017)
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 31 Oct 2017, 11:50 am
rckstein's Avatar
Obsessed Cruiser
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Euless, TX
Posts: 12,012
Default Re: Gearbox oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnitD77 View Post
AND START IT WILL!!!!
actually I only have a brief response.

yes the recommended oil weight does change based on usage environment, but not always. The PT recommends *goes out to car to get Owners Manual* With temperatures below 100 degrees F, 5W-30. Above 0 Degrees F it also says 10W-30 is acceptable, but 5W-30 is prefered.

Page 252 of owners manual "SAE 5W-30 engine oil is preferred. SAE 5W-30 engine oils improve low temperature starting and helps vehicle fuel economy."

So, can you use 10W-30. Yes, If your anticipated usage temperature is above 0 degrees. If your usage occurs below 0 degrees, it is recommended (and preferred) to use 5W-30.
On page 370 of my Owner's Manual states:

https://www.chrysler.com/download/pd...oad-button.y=7

"Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade)
SAE 5W-30 engine oil is recommended for all operating
temperatures. This engine oil improves low temperature
starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your engine oil
filler cap also shows the recommended engine oil
viscosity grade for your engine."
__________________

'06 Touring Edition NA Automatic
150k Miles / Electric Blue Pearl
USMC '82 - '93
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 31 Oct 2017, 03:03 pm
Sinbad's Avatar
Cool Cruiser
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 241
Default Re: Gearbox oil?

This is a strange one... the engineer in me says a gearbox oil should have a good shear strength, which tends towards the oil being thicker (also so it stays on the gears - as gearboxes don't have pumps) whereas ATF aint... maybe I'm just an old fuddy-duddy, but I even thought it was weird when the Japs started running engine oil in their gearboxes - especially when you think of the final drives.

ATF "seems" counter intuitive, and I wonder whether they headed that way to bleed a few more MPG out of the cars (thin oil = less drag) and weren't overly concerned about sods like us running gearboxes 10 or 15 years later?

Anybody run one long term with a 50/50 mix of ATF and engine oil?
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 31 Oct 2017, 04:09 pm
Fk5 Fk5 is offline
Senior Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cloverly, MD
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Gearbox oil?

A big issue with this stuff is the level of marketing involved. IMO, the switch to ATF+4 for everything was, at least in part, predicated on having only one fluid at the shop.

I mentioned the Fiat multi-air in another thread. My wife's car has it. I know guys running different viscosity allegedly without issue. I have always used the Mopar spec 0W20 which was originally only available through Shell. It took some time for Valvoline, Castrol and some of the others to get the spec. It was supposedly intentionally made different because Chrysler got a marketing deal with Shell in place of Mobil 1. Rumor has it that is why they used the oddball viscosity.

FWIW, I am pretty sure that at least once when my wife had the oil changed they used whatever crap they use at their shop. I told her to have them use the oil in the trunk, but when I picked the car up it was still there. I highly doubt it was full synthetic Mopar MS6395 0W20 for a $35 oil change. I just ran a shorter change interval and the car didn't seem to notice.

I still use what the factory recommended, but the older your car gets, the more outdated that is. It gets harder and harder to get oil for flat tappet cars these days. Is that a problem?
__________________
2003 GT 5 speed
150,000 miles
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01 Nov 2017, 02:54 pm
rob302's Avatar
Dedicated Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darien, IL | Forest Park, IL
Posts: 2,510
Default Re: Gearbox oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fk5 View Post
A big issue with this stuff is the level of marketing involved. IMO, the switch to ATF+4 for everything was, at least in part, predicated on having only one fluid at the shop.

I mentioned the Fiat multi-air in another thread. My wife's car has it. I know guys running different viscosity allegedly without issue. I have always used the Mopar spec 0W20 which was originally only available through Shell. It took some time for Valvoline, Castrol and some of the others to get the spec. It was supposedly intentionally made different because Chrysler got a marketing deal with Shell in place of Mobil 1. Rumor has it that is why they used the oddball viscosity.

FWIW, I am pretty sure that at least once when my wife had the oil changed they used whatever crap they use at their shop. I told her to have them use the oil in the trunk, but when I picked the car up it was still there. I highly doubt it was full synthetic Mopar MS6395 0W20 for a $35 oil change. I just ran a shorter change interval and the car didn't seem to notice.


I still use what the factory recommended, but the older your car gets, the more outdated that is. It gets harder and harder to get oil for flat tappet cars these days. Is that a problem?
The tremek service manual for my mustang trans specifically states to use atf NOT to use oil as oil will damage the blocker rings. People like oil because it feels smoother. I would guess the g288 has carbon fiber blocker rings as well and not brass the the t350. Oil may feel smoother but if you yank it from gear to hear like I do, I bet the farm you get a bigger crunch yanking on a trans with oil in there even though it's smoother in mope mode. I'd use the ATF in the turbo trans if you drive it hard. Unfortunately it's such an oddball trans there are no rebuild kits or service manuals to look at. I posted a pic of my t5 blocker ring in the other trans thread.

I could see ATF for the t350 being penny pinching, but for the g288 I'd say ATF it's the actual fluid specified by Getrag. Kinda surprised nobody called Getrag yet. I would have by now if it were my trans needing a refill.
Fk5 likes this.
__________________
.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01 Nov 2017, 03:42 pm
Fk5 Fk5 is offline
Senior Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cloverly, MD
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Gearbox oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob302 View Post
The tremek service manual for my mustang trans specifically states to use atf NOT to use oil as oil will damage the blocker rings. People like oil because it feels smoother. I would guess the g288 has carbon fiber blocker rings as well and not brass the the t350. Oil may feel smoother but if you yank it from gear to hear like I do, I bet the farm you get a bigger crunch yanking on a trans with oil in there even though it's smoother in mope mode. I'd use the ATF in the turbo trans if you drive it hard. Unfortunately it's such an oddball trans there are no rebuild kits or service manuals to look at. I posted a pic of my t5 blocker ring in the other trans thread.

I could see ATF for the t350 being penny pinching, but for the g288 I'd say ATF it's the actual fluid specified by Getrag. Kinda surprised nobody called Getrag yet. I would have by now if it were my trans needing a refill.
I think ATF+4 is generally more expensive than oil, but I guess you're right that keeping only one thing on hand might be cheaper for them. I also think it is odd that "smoother" would be the criteria since these were supposedly engineers discussing race vehicles. I have no idea or stake in what would be better - I know some companies claim it isn't so hot as power steering fluid. I would probably go with one of the aftermarket companies ATF+4 compatible fluids if I wanted to improve things, but knowing me, I will probably go with whatever cheap-o ATF+4 i can find or have on hand.
rob302 likes this.
__________________
2003 GT 5 speed
150,000 miles

Last edited by Fk5; 01 Nov 2017 at 03:46 pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gearbox bush set PTStuart Tech & Performance Forum 4 23 Feb 2015 11:01 am
Gearbox clunking stek2008 General PT Cruiser Discussions 4 07 Oct 2013 09:35 pm
Gearbox replacement swordfish Tech & Performance Forum 2 14 Oct 2010 08:22 pm
Gearbox noise?? siscor Tech & Performance Forum 6 03 Sep 2010 03:24 am
gearbox faults kenjenkins0123 Tech & Performance Forum 3 22 Mar 2009 09:21 am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:10 am.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2 © 2011, Crawlability, Inc.
vB.Sponsors