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Common failure point for inj 2 ckt / P0202 ?

 
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Old 07 Jan 2018, 07:39 pm
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Default Common failure point for inj 2 ckt / P0202 ?

Some history. I bought my 06 non turbo , auto trans car about 2 months ago, had a very light hit on the right front. When I got it there was an occasional miss but I didn't run the engine very long due to a broken rad.

Fixed crash damage and did my usual "change parts near end of life / before failure" reconditioning. Amongst other non miss related things I changed plugs, wires, ignition coil , 4 injectors. ( At 162 K miles it was time to change all of this. )

The car was fine for about 75 miles. Today I had it idling for about 45 min ( ambient temp 25 *F ) while I was trying my new diagnostic computer. There were some historical codes related to the grounding issue I had and none were miss fire related. These were all cleared

Near the end of my testing there was a sudden hard miss fire, pulled the code and got P0202 Injector 2 circuit open and a miss fire code for cyl 2.

Jiggled wires at the PCM , injector plug and where the sub harness plugs into the main harness. There was no change in the miss fire. After about 5 min the miss fire suddenly went away and engine ran fine.

I know how to test all of this and have been through intermittent electrical failures many times. My question is has a common failure point been identified on these cars? Something like a connector that is prone to failure or an area of a harness that rubs through.

The circuit isn't complicated, power to the injector and a wire to the PCM but finding a intermittent problem can be difficult especially if it turns out to be a bad solder joint in the PCM.

Thanks
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Old 07 Jan 2018, 10:28 pm
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Default Re: Common failure point for inj 2 ckt / P0202 ?

I would swap the center two injectors and see if it moves. Possible you got an iffy one. You'll also be able to carefully check the connectors and immediate area wiring while you're in there.

Only pcm cold solder joint I ever read about on here was for the hego driver (o2's would work only with firm pressure on the PCM connector.) Actual bad connectors have been reported, but usually it's something like a bulb socket out a melted connector in the dash, never where you describe.

Someone did need to clean/grease an injector connector recently, said it was corroded from power washing the engine. Was that you?
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Old 08 Jan 2018, 08:42 pm
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Default Re: Common failure point for inj 2 ckt / P0202 ?

Yep, would move 2 3 wires if they reach though I'd probably just pull the fuel rail and move the inj since the upper intake has to come off anyway.

Power wash corrosion was not me. I was inner fender grounds corroding from road salt.

Car went 45 mi today and not problems. Got my computer tester going on a better lap top, left it idling for 35 or so min testing different systems, no miss fire. Cleared the code.

Will probably hook a test light with enough load to inj plug then actuate inj 2 from scan tool and see if it goes out at some point. What I really need to do is get the inj sub harness and add lights from power to ground and across the inj.

The computer knows the inj is an open circuit by looking for an inductive kickback pulse when inj ground is dropped. No pulse = no inj action. ( When a coil in energized it creates a magnetic field, when power is removed the magnetic field has to go somewhere, it is absorbed into the windings and creates a voltage.

Also programmed the radio clock to stay on if radio is off. Tried to find an alarm system off option but could not. Will probably be getting plain non fob keys so the alarm does not set.
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Old 09 Jan 2018, 05:25 pm
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Default Re: Common failure point for inj 2 ckt / P0202 ?

i found what i read! post #8 here: Rough idle at cold startup and PO302

likely won't help you.. i'm just happy i read it and i'm not just nuts
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Old 09 Jan 2018, 06:46 pm
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Default Re: Common failure point for inj 2 ckt / P0202 ?

Thanks for the effort.

This engine was not washed in ages however it had been on salty roads. As a side note, it was advertised as an "AZ car". I could see from the pics the strut mounts and PS reservoir were rusty so I was suspicious. Had the seller check the title, yep, original state AZ , . . for about 3 months then straight to a salt belt state. Ha.

For the guy in the link, I'd check fuel pressure. Given the engine has good compression I'd probably just change the injectors due to mileage. A set of 100% new Standard brand injectors are just under $ 120. I don't randomly throw parts at a car but do change them near end of life before they fail. The problem with an injector is the spray pattern can be poor but the injector will still "work". I consider injectors a high mileage tune up part.

A poor spray pattern will put droplets in the cylinder that don't vaporize very well. This leads to a sort of _lean_ condition because most of the fuel has no chance of lighting off and goes right out the exhaust like it isn't even there.

As the engine warms up, the fuel has a better chance of vaporizing and the problem seems to go away.

Another cold start roughness issue is "carbon on the valves".* Specifically backs of the intake valves. During a cold start this acts like a sponge absorbing fuel causing an actual lean condition. BMW had a problem with this in the 80's along with other makes. They ended up using walnut shells to remove carbon and used occasional doses of Chevron Techron. This is the _only_ fuel additive that I'll use one bottle every 30 k miles or so. All others are a waste of $ and will soften fuel system rubber. If one bottle doesn't fix a problem there is a mechanical / electrical issue.

* For some fun google "carbon on the valves" and look for a vid.
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Old 11 Jan 2018, 08:06 pm
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Default Re: Common failure point for inj 2 ckt / P0202 ?

Quick update. Car developed the hard #2 miss fire / injector ckt open about 20 miles into a stop go / restart trip. The miss continued until I got home ( 10 miles ) and was no different on a restart. Wiggled the PCM plugs and tapped on the box, no change.

Ambient temps are 65 *F. Once motor was off / hood up for a few min, on restart the miss became more sporatic and went away for longer periods of time. Wiggled # 2 inj plug and it seemed to get better but it had been getting better on it's own. Engine temp is normal. Houston,. . we have a thermal problem.

Pulled the upper intake, unplugged all injectors, checked for power at inj 2, OK. Fired # 2 inj actuator test and got a ground path. The problem is the test pulses the inj not full on so finding an intermittent would be difficult. Plugged in an old inj and used the sound as a test while I wiggled the wires, it kept pulsing.

Pulled the fuel rail ( have to pull the thermostat housing for clearance ) and swapped inj 2 with 3. The wires won't reach to just swap the plugs. Will see if problem moves to another cyl.

Checked inj resistance ( they are all new ) got 13.6 / 14.2 / 13.6 / 13.5 At first I thought I got 15.6 on # 2 but a recheck was 14.2. After things cooled a bit more, # 2 was at 13.8. This _might_ be a problem but I'll see if the miss moves. Checked one old inj and got 11.2.

My next step might be to use an LCR meter ( L = Inductance , C = Capacitance , R = Resistance ) to see if the inductance is different than the others.

Also changed the fuel line from firewall to fuel rail. I've seen a burnt PT in the salvage yard that looked like the fire started on the passenger side and have seen pics of another under hood fire. The first one had unknown miles and the second a claimed 34 K.
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Old 12 Jan 2018, 05:39 pm
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Default Re: Common failure point for inj 2 ckt / P0202 ?

This AM the miss fire started at about 10 miles then was in and out, on the way home it ran mostly fine but there was an occasional hint of roughness.

Used my basic Audel Creader 419 scanner * and got a cylinder 3 inj circuit open. So, . . The new injector has a thermal problem. Put one of the old inj in and the car runs fine, will see how it acts over the next week.

* I just got this scanner as a handy quick check. It is small was was sub $ 30 new in sealed package in e bay. It isn't a substiute for my high end scanners but is very handy.

I probably would not recommend it for someone that is buying only one scanner. I'd go the 619 since it will read SRS / ABS and actuate some systems. The 519 only adds O2 sensor tests over the 419 so I would not consider it to be worth while.
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Old 13 Jan 2018, 11:12 am
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Default Re: Common failure point for inj 2 ckt / P0202 ?

happy you sorted it out, and glad the wires didn't reach for you to swap them. will the place you purchased the injectors from replace that one?
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Old 13 Jan 2018, 02:56 pm
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Default Re: Common failure point for inj 2 ckt / P0202 ?

Yep they ( Rock Auto ) will, but I will go down a different path first. When I got a legitimately bad MAF a few years ago, I contacted the manufacturers tech department. I gave them a detailed description of tests I had done and the known good A - B - A testing to confirm the new MAF was bad. Once I set this up, the maker contacted RA directly to make sure the part I sent back was returned to them.

My biggest concern with the injector is that there is a bad lot and the others may suffer a similar failure. Standard is a good brand but anything can fail.

Another reason for contacting the maker is to make them aware there is a failed part. Some time ago I was managing a truck equipment build shop and had repeated failures of a constant duty battery solenoid / relay ( like a Ford type fender mounted starter solenoid. ) . I'd send them back to the auto parts and they would provide me with a new one, I had dealt with them for decades and they didn't doubt that " this is a bod one "

The problem was auto parts would send part to the distributor but distributor would throw it away because it would cost more to send back then write it off. As a result the maker never knew there was a problem.

The last one that had failed I took apart and found the solenoid coil wire end was pulled too tight. Add in some vibration and the wire would break leaving the solenoid inoperable. With this information, the maker made sure the wire was not pulled too tightly.
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