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2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

 
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Old 21 Feb 2018, 10:25 am
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Default 2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

I gave up internet for Halloween and have not been here since then. Now I need help and I have been driving from place to place to pick up hints about what's up with my car for the last couple of weeks with an android that isn't activated but still pulls in wifi.

Timing belt was replaced at 95,000 miles (approx 4 weeks ago). This was done as recommended maintenance, the car had no running issues prior to the timing belt service. I have been using this shop for oil changes for a while, so we all kind of knew the history of the car and its general condition since I've had it. The only codes I've ever gotten are when the gas cap isn't screwed on tight enough. And another time when a sensor needed replacing (you all helped me do that myself!)

Prior to that timing belt replacement, the engine did not make a constant ticking noise.

(see this video https://youtu.be/e1cmxb2xg4U to hear the ticking noise I am referring to) and the shuddering the engine does after the car gets to operating temperature and this shuddering happens while using the defrost or the a/c.

The first time the car stalled out after timing belt replacement was during a very warm day, and I was sitting at a stop light. The a/c was running. The car shuddered a few times, approximately every 30 seconds, and then it shook once really hard and stalled. I turned off the a/c and the radio and turned the car back on. It came back on without any problem. I don't know what made it stop and I don't know what made it go after it stopped. (I'm not a mechanic). No check engine light, and no codes thrown.

The next time the car stalled was very early in the morning. I had driven approximately 1/2 hour at high speeds on a highway, and then stopped at a store. Was only in there maybe three minutes. When I got back into the car and started it up, the windows had gotten fogged up so I turned on the defroster. I put it in reverse to back out of the parking space. The car clunked and died. Though the CEL came on, it didn't give me a code (it just said "done" after flipping the key forward three times).

A couple of days after the last stall I went back to the repair facility, approximately 3 weeks past the maintenance they performed. I arrived about 5 minutes before they opened and again, it was sprinkling and causing me to use the defroster, and the car died in their driveway. Again no codes. I went inside and told the shop manager that it was having problems when the car was already warmed up. He wanted to let the car cool down before letting a tech inspect it. I told him the problems appear when the car is WARM not cold.

The tech performed a "smoke" test and said there was a small vacuum leak. He cleaned the throttle body and replaced a hose (going to the egr? can't remember) and said he couldn't get it to do what it was doing to me. He said without any codes it's a guessing game. I asked if it was the IAC and he said no, and even if it was it's an expensive repair (?? Is that true ??)

Even if it's an expensive repair, if I can only use the car during fair weather and at spring like temperatures I'm not going to get to use it when I really need to.

The technician doesn't want to have to pull the timing belt cover to inspect his work because he says that would take a long time. However it doesn't seem he bothered to check the serpentine belts either. So I thought maybe someone here might be able to confirm by sound alone, the source of this idle chattering. The tech recommended I go to a dealership to get it resolved.



SO: Replaced approx 4 weeks ago:

Timing belt, tensioner, water pump, both serpentine belts: I refer to them as the "long belt" and the "short belt" because i'm not sure which one is the cooling and heating serpentine belt but I think it's the long one because the short one is the alternator serpentine belt.

Checked a week ago: throttle body cleaned, and a smoke test that didn't prove to me there was a leak but that's what they were calling it before letting me drive away to find out myself if it still has problems.

I guess my last question is: Should the fan be turning at all times if the a/c or defroster is on full blast? Because in both cases the fan is not turning at all.

I bought a low speed relay thinking it might be the culprit. Installed it and it doesn't change a thing. It COULD be a defective relay but it could also be the wrong one. The old one doesn't have the identical markings on the top with the wiring diagram like the new one has, but all of the numbers on the slots are the same (embossed in the plastic).

Thanks for any help anyone can offer as far as suggestions about what to do now. Take it back to the original shop and make them pull the timing belt cover to inspect their work? Or at least check the serp belts? Or could it be that the fan motor is faulty?
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Old 21 Feb 2018, 11:27 am
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Default Re: 2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

To me, the issue that most matches your symptoms is an Idle Air Control valve that may be periodically failing. The IAC valve controls air flow when the engine is idling. It makes adjustments for the AC too. It can make the engine run rough at idle, die at idle or run low RPM's when the AC is on. And importantly, it may or may not throw a trouble code.

The IAC valve itself could be bad or the wiring going to it may have been damaged during the timing belt install.

Of course, this would not cause the clicking sound. That may be a worn lifter, cam lobe, rocker, bad serpentine belt tensioner, bad timing belt tensioner, bad belts, or a whole number of other things. If me, I'd concentrate on the engine issue and circle bad around to the clicking sound later.

Also, here's a thread on how to test the radiator cooler fan. These fail pretty routinely and you should definitely check yours.

How to test my radiator fan?
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Old 21 Feb 2018, 11:29 am
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Default Re: 2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

One of the typical symptoms of a non-working fan is the A/C compressor overheats, and stalls out which can also cause very rough idling. After a drive at highway speeds, park the car with the A/C on, engine running and lift the hood. Can you feel or hear the fan blowing at high speed, it should be very noticeable. Then turn the A/C off and see if the fan comes on at low speed. You should still feel air blowing around. It may take a minute or two for it to come on because it only turns on when the temperature gets above a certain point and the car is not moving.

Burned out motor brushes are far more likely to cause fan failure in this car than a bad relay.
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Old 21 Feb 2018, 12:53 pm
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Default Re: 2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

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Originally Posted by rsrocket1 View Post
One of the typical symptoms of a non-working fan is the A/C compressor overheats, and stalls out which can also cause very rough idling. After a drive at highway speeds, park the car with the A/C n, engine running and lift the hood. Can you feel or hear the fan blowing at high speed, it should be very noticeable. Then turn the A/C off and see if the fan comes on at low speed. You should still feel air blowing around. It may take a minute or two for it to come on because it only turns on when the temperature gets above a certain point and the car is not moving.

Burned out motor brushes are far more likely to cause fan failure in this car than a bad relay.
I appreciate both of your insight and suggestions. The video was made after driving over an hour at high speed. The beginning was after pulling over and there is the sound of the a/c turned on high. No fan running. I pulled the breather box any to show the fan not turning.

In another thread here there is s post that says an OBD 2 reader can test the high and low speed fan. Any truth go that? Like the kind that can be borrowed at some parts stores? Sorry my post is all jacked up the only thing worse than the car at the moment is the tech toys that I am incompetent to use to communicate to the forum.

Last edited by OldMiner; 21 Feb 2018 at 01:02 pm.
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Old 21 Feb 2018, 02:33 pm
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Default Re: 2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

I would suggest with the engine cold, start the engine, turn on the A/C and see if the radiator fan turns on almost instantly.

If it does not turn on manually apply 12 volts to both high and low speed on the radiator with the radiator wire connector disconnected. Check to see if any of the pins in the radiator fan connector has been pushed in. I have found some new radiator fan connectors that are bad.

Make sure you do a complete diagnostic before replacing any more parts. The more parts you replace the more issues that might come up that are not related to the original issue.

In my 2008 Pt Cruiser I don't use the A/C very often and it has the original radiator fan. In my wife's 2007 Pt Cruiser it has the third radiator fan from using the A/C every day
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Last edited by ptcruisersteve; 21 Feb 2018 at 03:03 pm.
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Old 21 Feb 2018, 03:04 pm
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Default Re: 2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

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Originally Posted by ptcruisersteve View Post
I would suggest with the engine cold, start the engine, turn on the A/C and see if the radiator fan turns on almost instantly.

If it does not turn on manually apply 12 volts to both high and low speed on the radiator with the radiator wire connector disconnected.

Make sure you do a complete diagnostic before replacing any more parts. The more parts you replace the more issues that might come up that are not related to the original issue.

In my 2008 Pt Cruiser I don't use the A/C very often and it has the original radiator fan. In my wife's 2007 Pt Cruiser it has the third radiator fan from using the A/C every day
Than you. I did as you said and the fan did not come on.

I don't know how to apply volts. I think there is a way using a mini battery starter that a friend was showing me the other day but I'm not sure... Maybe there's a YouTube demo out there?
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Old 21 Feb 2018, 03:19 pm
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Default Re: 2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

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Originally Posted by OldMiner View Post
Than you. I did as you said and the fan did not come on.

I don't know how to apply volts. I think there is a way using a mini battery starter that a friend was showing me the other day but I'm not sure... Maybe there's a YouTube demo out there?
I just used the Pt Cruiser battery, battery cables, and clip leads.

On one of my radiator fans it would come on once in a while when I manually applied 12 volts to it due to brushes barely touching so I decided from that point on to just replace the radiator fan when it happens unless the radiator fan was recently replaced. You don't want to take a chance and have the engine overheat. The engine cylinder head is very easy to warping when the engine overheats.
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Old 21 Feb 2018, 03:48 pm
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Default Re: 2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

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Originally Posted by ptcruisersteve View Post
I just used the Pt Cruiser battery, battery cables, and clip leads.

On one of my radiator fans it would come on once in a while when I manually applied 12 volts to it due to brushes barely touching so I decided from that point on to just replace the radiator fan when it happens unless the radiator fan was recently replaced. You don't want to take a chance and have the engine overheat. The engine cylinder head is very easy to warping when the engine overheats.
Funny thing is I just lent my booster cables to a friend who is having alternator issues and now we are far apart. Oh well was looking for a smaller set anyway. My old ones were for a big truck. Not thT the clips matter but the cables needed to be long enough to reach another source. Now my little bitty cruiser just needs a couple feet of clearance.

P. S. So far no overheating on the needle. I assume there will be no code if it does.
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Old 24 Feb 2018, 10:56 am
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Default Re: 2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

Update: lacking tools, time, and diagnostic experience with this car, I checked the car into the nearest dealership. I was under the impression that dealerships have more diagnostic tools other than an obd scan tool because I wanted to find out what precisely is causing the fan not to turn. The results on the report says: UNABLE TO VERIFY CONCERN FOUND LOW FAN INOP SUSPECT FAN MODULE, NO REPAIRS PERFORMED.

however, I already know its not the "module" (relay) because I tested with 2 brand new relays and neither made the fan turn.

So I offered to show them how to get it to do what it was doing in the video I made (galloping engine, fan not turning). I got behind the wheel with the tech sitting next to me and after 60 seconds the damn fan came on.

Tech said when he had it on the lift and running he managed to coax it into spinning. Something happened (probably coincidentally() during timing belt replacement that caused either the fan or the relay or possibly both to go to sleep. I had hoped that instead of "finding the low fan IHOP" they could have said the low speed fan isn't communicTing, verified electronically. I mean I could see the low speed fan was inoperable. Anybody can. And now that it is turning I will have to pay again for an expert opinion that's as good as my grandpa's guess next time it quits. And throw parts at it.

I'm just glad I didn't fork over 1k for a pcm which was their first guess. I am buying a fan assembly and will install it myself.
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Old 24 Feb 2018, 11:04 am
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Default Re: 2004 non turbo engine shakes using a/c or defrost

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMiner View Post
Update: lacking tools, time, and diagnostic experience with this car, I checked the car into the nearest dealership. I was under the impression that dealerships have more diagnostic tools other than an obd scan tool because I wanted to find out what precisely is causing the fan not to turn. The results on the report says: UNABLE TO VERIFY CONCERN FOUND LOW FAN INOP SUSPECT FAN MODULE, NO REPAIRS PERFORMED.

however, I already know its not the "module" (relay) because I tested with 2 brand new relays and neither made the fan turn.

So I offered to show them how to get it to do what it was doing in the video I made (galloping engine, fan not turning). I got behind the wheel with the tech sitting next to me and after 60 seconds the damn fan came on.

Tech said when he had it on the lift and running he managed to coax it into spinning. Something happened (probably coincidentally() during timing belt replacement that caused either the fan or the relay or possibly both to go to sleep. I had hoped that instead of "finding the low fan IHOP" they could have said the low speed fan isn't communicTing, verified electronically. I mean I could see the low speed fan was inoperable. Anybody can. And now that it is turning I will have to pay again for an expert opinion that's as good as my grandpa's guess next time it quits. And throw parts at it.

I'm just glad I didn't fork over 1k for a pcm which was their first guess. I am buying a fan assembly and will install it myself.
It's most likely just their terminology, but they probably mean the fan motor itself, not the controlling module for it. By the tech hitting it, may just make it work for a little while, but maybe not always.
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