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02 PT starts then stalls immediately

 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04 Nov 2019, 03:19 pm
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 55
Default 02 PT starts then stalls immediately

The vehicle- 2002 PT limited, non-turbo, automatic. Original motor had 220,000 miles and a blown head gasket. I just completed swapping in a 2002 2.4 PT motor with 180,000 miles and a new head gasket.

Problem-
When cold, the motor will start right up and run fine. Once it gets a little bit warm it will start cranking, catching, but stalling. Randomly it will catch, run poorly, but clear up and run good.

I know I have good fuel pressure. No check engine light or codes, no security system light.

Are there any recognized known problems that cause these symptoms? I know my way around a car, and I am familiar with PTs, but I am not overly familiar with the finer points of the electrical issues these cars have.

Right now I am leaning towards a vacuum leak from the EGR tube connection to the upper intake where a previous owner ripped it out of the manifold; faulty injectors (both motors sat outside for an extended period of time); faulty plugs; faulty coil faulty crank position sensor. Am I on the right track with any of these?

Any input is appreciated.
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Old 04 Nov 2019, 05:08 pm
Cool Cruiser
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 283
Default Re: 02 PT starts then stalls immediately

man, you must really love that pt... is it a primary vehicle?

try a vacuum gauge, especially when it starts failing..
if it sat, please do the basics. if you find a bad cylinder- the rinlgs love to stick on these motors.
remember the throttle needs to be wide open (or the intake removed for a correct comp test, and a warm engine...

2 days of wd-40 in our #3 cylinder magically un-stuck the rings...it was at 45psi then back to 170psi. sweet- wife points!

stick with OEM sensors from the factory and you may need to run it down to re-program the PCM.

THEN, start screwing with sensors...and save that old motor.

edit- it really does sound like a bad cam or crank sensor- but always check a second hand engine- cut open the oil filter that was on it. a good 500miles on NON synthetic to clean everything out is a very good idea, hell, even 100miles. I would. the napa non syn is Valvoline nonsyn break in oil, just for your info

Last edited by rambojoe; 04 Nov 2019 at 05:13 pm.
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Old 07 Nov 2019, 12:45 am
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 55
Default Re: 02 PT starts then stalls immediately

Thanks for the response. it is my niece's first car, so I am trying to get it reliable for as cheap as possible. PTs have been in the family for about 12 years, so I am used to working on them.

Tonight's testing revealed 150 psi compression on cylinders 1 and 4, 140 psi on cylinders 2 and 3. Well within spec. Still no trouble codes, but the short and long term fuel trims are in the -10 to -25 range. I resealed the EGR tube in the intake manifold and that seemed to help. Starting is easier, but the idle is still rough and if I rev it and let it drop back to idle the motor dies.

I have 60+ psi fuel pressure with the motor off, but I will check it with the motor running. I need to still check the engine vacuum at idle. It is just odd that no codes are setting.

I guess I will keep doing old-school diagnosis and start cleaning and testing sensors. Computers only get you so far.
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Old 07 Nov 2019, 08:45 am
Cool Cruiser
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 283
Default Re: 02 PT starts then stalls immediately

vacuum gauges get you farther. and check and readjust the idle air control as well as the map. ypou will not do her any good with cheap sensors, just remember. sounds like it cannot figure out how or when to idle... also tps…


remember leaks with b-12 then the engine stalls with extra fuel at idle? something along those lines. also make sure butterflys are not gummed up...still im surprised the pcm didn't need a reprogram for the new engine...oh well

p.s., qtips and b12 berryman will clean out them injectors just fine...
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Old 07 Nov 2019, 12:43 pm
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Default Re: 02 PT starts then stalls immediately

The new engine was from another 2002 PT. I have a spare set of injectors soaking in a tank of carb cleaner right now and I will start cleaning and checking the IAC and TPS and throttle body today. First, step will be to et a vacuum reading while it is running. I agree the problem is related to idling since it seems to run fine off idle.
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Old 08 Nov 2019, 02:36 pm
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Default Re: 02 PT starts then stalls immediately

UPDATE-

Vacuum at idle when hot is 10-11 inches of mercury. Not good. The good compression readings confirm the cams are timed properly and the valves and head and head gasket are in good condition. There is a vacuum leak somewhere in the intake tract OR the injectors or O2 sensor are in poor condition. I have disassembled the entire intake tract and checked the gaskets. All gaskets are good. The only one that is slightly worrying is the EGR tube gasket where it goes into the upper intake manifold. Fortunately, my local Autozone has a new one for about $3.

I will try swapping the throttle body, TPS, IAC, and O2 sensor with the ones from the replacement motor and see what happens.
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Old 08 Nov 2019, 05:50 pm
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 55
Default Re: 02 PT starts then stalls immediately

Further update-

First, to recap, this is a 2002 non turbo PT limited with a 2.4 and automatic. I just completed an engine swap to a lower mileage (180,000) mile motor with a rebuilt cylinder head. It was exhibiting low idle vacuum, hot restart problems, rough idle, and stalling.

I took the intake tract apart, piece by piece, down to the cylinder head. I then reassembled verifying all gaskets looked good and all bolts were torqued properly. Along the way I replaced the 180,000 mile injectors with the original 220,000 mile injectors that I soaked in carb cleaner for about 30 minutes. I made sure the EGR tube sealed up in the intake manifold. I also swapped the throttle body, IAC valve, and TPS sensor to the ones from the 180,000 replacement motor.

Something in that bunch seems to have solved the hot start, stalling, and rough idle problems I was having. The motor now idles at 900-950, but it still only draws 9-10 inches of vacuum and the long term fuel trim is still reading -25. Short term fuel trim ranges from +3 to - 17, but it usually stays around +1 to -5. This long term fuel trim tells me the computer thinks the engine is running VERY lean. Short term fuel trim is less worrysome.

I am happy with everything EXCEPT the very low vacuum reading and the long term fuel trim. I am fairly certain that correct engine vacuum on a naturally aspirated gasoline motor should be around 20 inches of mercury at idle. This motor is only pulling 9-10 inches. I am measuring the vacuum using the capped nipple on the check valve on the brake booster.

Questions:

(1) is 9-10 inches of mercury the normal vacuum level for the 2.4 natrually aspirated motor? I don't think so, but what do I know.

(2) should I be checking the vacuum at some other point on the intake tract? I can't see anyplace I could easily tap into, but I don't claim to be an expert on these cars.

(3) what fuel trim readings, short and long term, are considered "normal" on these engines?

Any input is appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 09 Nov 2019, 08:36 am
Cool Cruiser
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 283
Default Re: 02 PT starts then stalls immediately

make sure your vac gauge is set to zero and not leaking. even the cheap ones have a screw to calibrate to zero. elevation will also lower figures...

confirm 900rpm is correct idle speed- which I think is too low... and again, the iac needs to be clean and set to a certain amount of reveal, then the computer will self adjust it. its just a solenoid that meters idle air, if memory serves, the throttle valve stays in one spot- ie, no screw, but still should be in a slightly open position.

just as important as the idle reading, what it does at partial throttle needs to be determined. what does the needle do when you rev it to 1,100? other than all of this, then you still have a leak- as long as you are plugging in the gauge between the throttle body and the engine. you shouldn't re-use those gaskets either. use felpro and do not over-tighten. try berrymans b-12 at all the joints and at the injectors...when it stalls, you've found it. and reusing the injector orings is a bad idea as well. the felpro kit is cheap...
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Old 09 Nov 2019, 09:10 am
Cool Cruiser
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 283
Default Re: 02 PT starts then stalls immediately

down load vac gauge diagnostics for your gauge- it will give you some good tips. also check all the vacuum related items like the brake booster and egr (if your car has one) keep in mind that sometimes after a engine blows- depending on how spectacular the manner of blow, the catalytic converter can get clogged, which the instructions with your gauge can easily determine...

edit- I have no idea what the warm curb idle should be- nor can I remember what our 05 idles at... the tranny blew and is on the work bench....

Last edited by rambojoe; 09 Nov 2019 at 09:13 am.
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Old 09 Nov 2019, 03:52 pm
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Lake Wales, FL
Posts: 4,867
Default Re: 02 PT starts then stalls immediately

Have you even looked at your PCV valve, hose and connector?
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