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Is this normal for a Predator?

 
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Old 21 Sep 2012, 10:09 pm
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Default Is this normal for a Predator?

I have an 03 Dream cruiser with an auto stick. I have a Diablo sport Predator on it, Canned 93 tune installed. I wanted to know if anyone have this happen to them. When I hit 4000 rpm in 1st the turbo really kicks in and throws you back. I'm not sure if this is normal (it doesn't do it without the tune) and is there anyway to make it happen at a lower RPM?
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Old 21 Sep 2012, 10:34 pm
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Default Data Acquisition and Data Averaging

If you have a way to log a power run then someone might be able to see if it is the calibration in the "canned" tuned or a mechanical anomaly that the tune is simply augmenting giving you that Turbo on now event?
You can contact Diablo Sport and ask for the specific changes made in the ECU Calibrations you have chosen to use.
By knowing this information and a complete parts list of changes you have done or was done to your PT someone can give you suggestions on what ECU Calibration might be changed to further increase your engines output and power response. As an example one item of change may be to calibrated the ECU to get a desired boost level with a closed loop correction against the MAP sensor. Also changing the duty cycle maps may help change the torque curve as well?
Anything less then "Data Acquisition" is guess work at best with no foundation establishing that DELTA to be able to accurately do some "Data Averaging" for your specific PT.
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Old 22 Sep 2012, 09:48 am
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Default Re: Is this normal for a Predator?

^^^What Nitro said^^^

......plus, just deducing from your comment that this happens with the canned tune and not with the "stock" tune, that means it is indeed connected with the tune. A boost guage would be a handy item so you could see if the PSI is holding steady or bumping up at 4000rpm. But really, a log is best because you can see other things such as the spark advance for example. Yes, you should be able to optimize the tune and have the power coming in sooner.
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Old 22 Sep 2012, 09:56 am
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Default Re: Is this normal for a Predator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2step View Post
^^^What Nitro said^^^

......plus, just deducing from your comment that this happens with the canned tune and not with the "stock" tune, that means it is indeed connected with the tune. A boost guage would be a handy item so you could see if the PSI is holding steady or bumping up at 4000rpm. But really, a log is best because you can see other things such as the spark advance for example. Yes, you should be able to optimize the tune and have the power coming in sooner.
^^^^What 2step said^^^^

Here is something handy that you might find usefull?? I came across this ad.
PTCrew.com - Learn it or Burn it.
a "professional grade" boost leak tester for free.
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Old 22 Sep 2012, 12:56 pm
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Default Re: Is this normal for a Predator?

When I had my dsp loaded I had the same thing. Think this is how it was with the canned tune.

It does this in any gear, not just first. With dsp I had full body as soon as 4k rpm rolled around and still hdss god a/f reading without knock (most of the time)

Readings on the boost gauge were at 0-5psi until 4k rpm then I would spike to 21-23psi and settle around 19-21psi.

You can modify the boost by rpm range with the dsp (as well as many other parameters), but I would not recommend it without wideband, data logging or knowledge.
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Sold 2003 Pt Cruiser GT Autostick. Sold
Now a slow 2009 Pontiac vibe 2.4l 5-speed.
http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=9656&dateline=1247691  818

227 HP and 281 TQ

new best of 14.56 1/4 mile on 7/25/12 still using the canned tune from my diablosport predator.

*Stage 1, DSP w/93 canned tune, 3" o2 housing, 3" FWDPerformance downpipe with cutout. Bwoody solid mounts. AMX1397 TTAB with K&n drop in filter and airbox mod. AMX1397 lower pipe and AMX1397 uppipe with HKS BOV
* stock nsrt rims powdercoated black, chrome pillars.
* 3 gauge pod w/ aem wideband, Autometer ultralite oil pressure and 30/30 boost, Mopar 8" sub.*

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Old 22 Sep 2012, 02:57 pm
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Default Re: Is this normal for a Predator?

Just throwing this out there....
How would you know if you had knock (pre- ignition) with out seeing the voltage from the knock sensor or watching the ignition timing, IAT's and AFRs in concert? Generally speaking when you can hear pre-ignition, pining or "knock" the engine has been doing it long before it was human ear audible.


If this is the case with the supplied ECU calibration Predator should be aware of it and can make changes in the basic calibration tables. I have read almost everything on the Diablosport Forum and there is nothing with these systems from other users. Granted there is only one PT member posting and I believe that was a few years ago?
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Old 22 Sep 2012, 05:01 pm
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Default Re: Is this normal for a Predator?

Since every pt is different I was just throwing out what experiences I had. I used to data log a good bit, untill laptop went down. Let me re word what I said in the past post.... To my knowledge I did this without knock. Only 1 or 2 of the 20+ logs showed a slight knock.
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Sold 2003 Pt Cruiser GT Autostick. Sold
Now a slow 2009 Pontiac vibe 2.4l 5-speed.
http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=9656&dateline=1247691  818

227 HP and 281 TQ

new best of 14.56 1/4 mile on 7/25/12 still using the canned tune from my diablosport predator.

*Stage 1, DSP w/93 canned tune, 3" o2 housing, 3" FWDPerformance downpipe with cutout. Bwoody solid mounts. AMX1397 TTAB with K&n drop in filter and airbox mod. AMX1397 lower pipe and AMX1397 uppipe with HKS BOV
* stock nsrt rims powdercoated black, chrome pillars.
* 3 gauge pod w/ aem wideband, Autometer ultralite oil pressure and 30/30 boost, Mopar 8" sub.*

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Old 22 Sep 2012, 05:48 pm
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Default Re: Is this normal for a Predator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 03GTCruiser View Post
Since every pt is different I was just throwing out what experiences I had. I used to data log a good bit, untill laptop went down. Let me re word what I said in the past post.... To my knowledge I did this without knock. Only 1 or 2 of the 20+ logs showed a slight knock.
The term "canned Tunes" comes with common denominators within the average modded vehicle application for ECU Calibrations. Most of these "canned Tunes" will work with even extreme street driven vehicle engine modifications. The exception may be some high profile camshafts generally used for higher engine speeds as expected in track use or the use of very large injectors that scaling is required for there use.
For me any information even "seat of the pants" that I can use to define a calibration possibly used in the "canned Tunes". I would love and appreciate any logs you may have stored if you are willing to share them to help me get a better idea about how the PT reacts to different ECU calibration changes.


Below is a sampling of what I look at with another ECU Calibration tool and viewer. You can see that the timing values as well the knock values are in check. But there is a slight anomaly during shifting.
Point is even the slightest "knock" noise will change the knock values and have an effect of many other cells in the ECU.


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Last edited by NitroPT; 22 Sep 2012 at 06:12 pm.
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Old 22 Sep 2012, 06:06 pm
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Default Useful information

What is Knock

Many of us have heard the term and also witnessed the final outcome of knock related engine failures. How then might we better understand this phenomenon? How might we then guard against it happening in our expensive road or race bred engines? These are good questions. A step to getting a hold of this concept will start with an understanding of normal combustion, where knock is not evident.

To begin, we shall concentrate on the ignition phase of the 4-stroke engine cycle. I will assume you are familiar with the Otto-cycle of intake, compression, combustion and exhaust strokes common to most engines we come into daily contact with, however the general principles apply to 2 stroke engines as well.

At the point of ignition, the mixture of fuel and air has been compressed by the compression stroke to a point where it can be efficiently ignited, usually by a single spark at just the right time. When the spark ignites the mixture, it normally causes the propagation of a flame front that moves like the ripple of a stone dropped in a pond, to envelope all of the fuel air mixture in the clearance volume at the top of the piston.

The key here is the orderly nature of flame propagation. It is not an explosion, which is an instant uncontrolled event. On the contrary, it is orderly and progressive, starting at one place (the spark gap) and proceeding until all the available mixture is burnt. This takes a finite amount of time. In order to extract the most work (power output) from each combustion event, the ignition is advanced to a number of degrees before top dead center to account to this delay. Exactly how many degrees of advance is optimum will depend on many factors, but the dominant one is engine speed. For a given (fixed) burn time, at high engine speeds the ignition will have to be advanced by more degrees than at low speeds, all other factors being equal. There is more to that story, as we shall find out, however the extent of this explanation shall suffice for now.

Remember now, how we talked about the orderliness of the combustion event? This is the crucial factor. The ready-to-burn mixture is ideally in a state of turbulence for good mixing and the when the spark sets it off; most of the combustion takes place away from the metal parts. In an optimum world, only a smallish portion of the heat of combustion finds its way to the cylinder walls and the other metal components such as the cylinder head chamber or the valves and it mostly does this where the burning gas touches the metal surfaces. (Remember this point).

So stable controlled combustion minimizes heat loss to the water jacket and allows the metal components to live without stress. This leaves a significant proportion of the heat left over to do what we want, and that is to expand the intake gas by making it hot and pressurized. Simple enough. The hot gas can then only become expanded when the piston moves down the bore, generates mechanical work turning the crankshaft and this wins you the race. The hot gas becomes cooler as it expands and the energy lost to the gas comes out at about 30% in exhaust heat, 30% in water jacket heat, and 30% (roughly) in energy to turn the crankshaft to push you forward and prepare any other cylinders on the crankshaft to fire.

So what of knock then? In simple terms knock occurs when the orderly combustion process breaks down. It turns out that petrol and most hydrocarbon fuels have distinct limits of pressure and temperature at which they will sustain orderly combustion. What happens when these limits are reached is that the fuel mixture will self ignite (a bit like a diesel) so that there are pockets of self-ignition combustion distinct from the spark-originated combustion.

This causes considerable disarray in the combustion event. The combustion is no longer ordered and stable. It often happens that a particular part of the combustion chamber will trigger a separate self-ignited flame origin. This causes a localized pressure event that pushes or distorts the remaining un-burnt mixture with such force it will wobble backwards and forwards in the combustion chamber and makes the combustion chamber contents ring like a bell for an instant. While that ringing or washing backwards and forwards is happening, of course the mixture is continuing to burn. This causes the burning mixture to contact much more of the surrounding metal parts than it would normally do (more surface area is exposed) and so it imparts far more heat by conduction to those metal surfaces. What results is a kind of runaway process. The super-hot component (valve edge, squish nose, poorly cooled patch of chamber floor/piston crown) will then likely cause another unstable combustion event, and that will add more heat to these susceptible areas and before long, pinging/knock/detonation become the rule and engine destruction becomes inevitable if left alone. Other knock causes are also related to temperature such as exhaust gas contamination. Here exhaust back pressure may cause hot exhaust gas to leak back into the combustion chamber during valve overlap and kick off premature ignition, causing knock. However poor cooling distribution around the combustion chambers or high inlet charge temperatures are often the most dominant causes of knock for most designs.

As I illustrated before, the ringing of the knock event is a
resonance of the hot gas in the confined clearance volume. It has a
resonant frequency that depends on the density of the gas and size of
the enclosed volume and when this volume is disturbed in a knocking
engine cycle, it will ring like a bell for a short instant.

For most practical engines this ringing frequency is broadly between 5
and 12 Kilohertz (about 5,000 to 12,000 cycles per second). Older
people cannot hear much usefully above 12 KHz, however almost everyone
with normal hearing can discriminate up to 10 KHz.


Courtesy of: Smiths Racing Services

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Old 25 Sep 2012, 08:16 am
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Default Re: Useful information

Well, tried to see if I can get my old laptop to boot up, but got nothing except a beep and some lights. Think drive is fried and I never uploaded the datalogs.

Sorry I was not much help there, Nitro.
__________________
Sold 2003 Pt Cruiser GT Autostick. Sold
Now a slow 2009 Pontiac vibe 2.4l 5-speed.
http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=9656&dateline=1247691  818

227 HP and 281 TQ

new best of 14.56 1/4 mile on 7/25/12 still using the canned tune from my diablosport predator.

*Stage 1, DSP w/93 canned tune, 3" o2 housing, 3" FWDPerformance downpipe with cutout. Bwoody solid mounts. AMX1397 TTAB with K&n drop in filter and airbox mod. AMX1397 lower pipe and AMX1397 uppipe with HKS BOV
* stock nsrt rims powdercoated black, chrome pillars.
* 3 gauge pod w/ aem wideband, Autometer ultralite oil pressure and 30/30 boost, Mopar 8" sub.*

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