The "FYI" on K&N

[2step]

I've given a lot of thought and just about to spend a lot of time and money on cooler/less restrictive intake plumbing. Is the point of this thread that time and money is better spent on boost improvements only? (Side question: What are our cousins on the SRT4 forum having the best results with?)[:I]

[2step]

Dalite........It looks as though we're talking about stock/factory control here. Your position seems to be, the computer control is programed to take only what it needs or as much as it needs to produce a set amount of power. I hope my pea brain is following you correctly.
Will taking away some of the stock controls, such as after market, adjustable wastegates and boost control create opportunities for these cool air/more air mods to produce improvements? Lots of paradigms here, I guess.[:I]

[bluebluegt]

K&N can say what they think and did in a controlled room but on the track, with a K&N filter and the stock air intake to the air box I ran a 15.10 best of 4 runs,, installed the amx intake and ran a best of 14.75 worst being 14.85, went back to the stock intake w/ K&N in the air box and ran best 15.07. also left the amx intake to airbox on the car went to the track the next week and ran a 14.65 first run. I have a boost controller set at 18 and the amx intake and the amx air duct from next to the fog lite to the fenderwell, I have added S1 but haven't been to the track with it yet. any and all air intakes work better. It is just the amx one works the best with the air box.will add the exhaust after I see what S1 does(at the track)
Lowell

[03baggedturbo]

I have dyno'd a lot of PT's with different intakes.. no intake is going to give you more than a couple HP gain.. Bob has done the same thing at his shop.. he has over 75 dyno runs on a turbo PT with different exhaust, different intakes.. and he said he has not gained more than a couple HP .. Some of his best results on dyno runs.. different intakes (3-4HP), exhausts(5-7HP), stage one(15HP), and the VAK system (30HP gain).. His PT dyno'd over 300HP to the wheels with no boost controler so he is doing something right..

In theory if you have a cold air intake that is truly cold air then you would produce more hp.. otherwise why have an intercooler? The hole job of an intercooler is to cool the air down.. and if you come in with colder air then it cant hurt..

I would not claim that any intake especialy one that has the same design as all the others.. a pipe that goes to the stock air box from the turbo.. nothing special about any intake.. they all work about the same.. unless you have a cold air induction hood that is controling air right to the filter..

The intakes with heat shields dont work.. once you drive for a few minutes the metal heat shield heats up to the same temp as the engine bay so where is the shield in that?

Bringing a hose from the fog lights up to the air box doesnt realy work.. Right where the fog lights are is hotter then up a few inches.. down that low you get the heat off the pavment..

And like I said at the beginging take what anyone says with a grain of salt including me.. no body is an expert on here.. and in the end you are going to buy what looks nice and fits your budget..

Adam
www.prototypepower.com

[Cal Cruzer]

quote:Bringing a hose from the fog lights up to the air box doesnt realy work.. Right where the fog lights are is hotter then up a few inches.. down that low you get the heat off the pavment..

If you only drive on really hot days this may be true, but my temp sensor in the air box tells me different for most of my driving.

[Dalite]

quote:Originally posted by 2step

Dalite........It looks as though we're talking about stock/factory control here. Your position seems to be, the computer control is programed to take only what it needs or as much as it needs to produce a set amount of power. I hope my pea brain is following you correctly.
Will taking away some of the stock controls, such as after market, adjustable wastegates and boost control create opportunities for these cool air/more air mods to produce improvements? Lots of paradigms here, I guess.[:I]

Sorry for the late reply; I don't get on her much anymore....

Think of it this way. The PCM (computer) has a certain amount of processing power and a speed of processing. It is looking for data within a set range, to determine what kind of control it has over the engine.

When you add aftermarket items, they sometimes make the data the computer receives from it's sensors fall outside of the range that the computer is programmed to accept as normal.

When this happens, there is a big chance that the computer will derate the engine performance until the data falls back into range.

You can research Mass Air Flow vs Speed and Density turbo management to get a loose concept of what has been accepted as the 2 methods of turbo management.

The GT uses a variation of the Speed and Density concept, but it is labeled as Torque Based Turbo Management.

When I mentioned the computer having a certain amount of processing power and speed, I was leading up to a comparison.

If you have a lot of junk running in the background of your PC, you can bring up the task manager and see the actual amount of processing power that they are using as a percentage by hitting ctrl-alt delete one time. If you close some of the background processes that aren't needed, you will see that it frees up both memory and processing power to allow the programs you want to run react faster.

The PCM is the same way. If it is constantly having to doubt data it receives and derate performance until it receives data within it's acceptable range, performance suffers.

By the same token, every timer-tick that the PCM has to spend trying to manage a system that has been foiled by an after-market change, is a timer-tick that could have been used to make the stock configuration perform closer to maximum.

I just got a data logger for my GT, and I will try to get some data collected to indicate throttle position, engine load, speed, RPM and Intake manifold pressure. I can select parameters (Plus actual speed) to log, for up to 300 hours at a time - before downloading to the ocmputer and graphiong the results.

Hopefully, this will provide some concrete results that will provide more information than conjecture.

I have gathered all the info on the system that I could find, but so far, DCX has been playing their cards close to their vest concerning the PCM operation on the GT.

I hope this made some sense.....

[1ptturbo]

[|)]
I totally agree with Dalite and you should take what he has said into consideration and not discount it! Glad to see your back posting again Dalite, .
I feel your best mods will be on the exhaust side of the turbo, larger DP - CAT and exhaust because the PCM won't have much control over them. I think even 3Bar said this much. I also feel you can mod the intake side under WOT conditions if you leave the part throttle conditions to the PCM. Sure would be nice if we could get SII.

[Cal Cruzer]

The PCM is programmed to manage the engine a certain nunber of times per second using data collected from the sensors. It can make as many corrections as needed in each cycle with no problems. It won't do any more or any less. The PCM's primary goal in life it to keep the AF mixture within certain perameters at given RPM, load, boost, temp, etc. If you can get more air into the engine, the PCM can't spit it back out, it has to do what it does to make the AF ratio right. More fuel, air = more power. There is no horsepower meter, torque meter or anything else that the PCM reads and reduces HP if it sees too much. It just tries to keep AF within programmed parameters. Can you get more boost? Great! It knows you need more fuel to keep the AF ratio right, based on sensor data, up the the maximum duty cylce of the injectors. When it can no longer make enough correction is when you go lean and start blowing things up. If the PCM had a HP readout we would not need a dyno, just plug into the PCM and tune. Don't give the PCM credit for more than it can do.

[1ptturbo]

The New Generation Controllers for the 2003 up 2.4L turbo engine use a torque based boost control(the use of a speed density system was just to keep costs down), torque is determined by throttle input and the NGC (PCM) is continuously calculating the correct control parameters regardless of ambient conditions and no longer uses preprogrammed tables of operating conditions. It does a lot more than calculate A/F ratio in fact it is somewhat secondary.[:I]
[:0]

[Cal Cruzer]

Cool! Where can I plug in to get it to tell me how much torque I am producing?