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Still trying to fix steering vibration

 
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 23 Jun 2019, 04:26 pm
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Default Re: Still trying to fix steering vibration

Ok, I just checked for slack with the car down on the ground. The joint isn't budging. I'm getting a small amount of in and out movement on the CV axle, but I believe that is normal for the inner joint, no?
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 23 Jun 2019, 05:11 pm
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Default Re: Still trying to fix steering vibration

you had side to side play in the video towards the end, what about that?

i always start by moving front tires to the back just to rule them out.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 23 Jun 2019, 06:30 pm
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Default Re: Still trying to fix steering vibration

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Originally Posted by rob302 View Post
you had side to side play in the video towards the end, what about that?

i always start by moving front tires to the back just to rule them out.
The video was with the car on jack stands, so the suspension/tires/etc. were under the influence of gravity.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 23 Jun 2019, 06:57 pm
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Default Re: Still trying to fix steering vibration

I believe Rob is suggesting that you move the front tired to the back as a test to help make sure that the a bad tire is not the cause of your problem. Sometimes a perfectly good looking tire can be delaminated beneath the tread or have an almost undetectable bulge that can cause symptoms like you are describing. By moving the front tires to the back, it should at least change the symptoms to some degree if a tire is the cause.

As a very generalized rule (and ASE test question), a noise or vibration with an outer CV joint will change when the front wheels are turned. Failing inner CV joints may have a more constant noise or vibration. That may be the reason the shop decided it was the intermediate shaft, but since it has no joint, that may not be the case. Other items that could cause a constant front end vibration might include:

Bad alignment.
Damaged suspension.
Bad front wheel bearing.
Damaged front brakes.
Bent wheel rim.
Bad front tires.

Rotating the front tires to the back costs nothing but time and will help eliminate or at least change two of these potential causes.

For the front wheel bearings (if not changed out already), check for one of them getting really hot after driving the car for a while. Also, while changing the front tires, pull on the wheels while jacked up off the ground. See if there is lots of play or it a bearing seems loose. See if you feel or hear a grinding while spinning the wheel by hand and coming from either a bearing or the brakes. Look and feel for anything about one wheel that is different than the other. And observed the intermediate shaft while rotating the right front wheel. The carrier bearing is really the main failure point on these. Other than the bearing, it can slip too far one way or the other if the shaft is loose from the carrier bearing.

As a disclaimer, it should be noted that while I am an ASE Certified Master Automotive Tech and an excellent lover, I primarily work as a Safety Engineer among other things and I haven't worked as a professional mechanic since I was young strapping lad with long sexy flowing hair before college. And even then, I mainly worked on big trucks and heavy equipment. Nowadays, I enjoy working on these funny looking little cars for fun and relaxation. And I help others when I can.
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Last edited by Handy_Cruiser; 23 Jun 2019 at 07:02 pm.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 23 Jun 2019, 07:54 pm
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Default Re: Still trying to fix steering vibration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy_Cruiser View Post
I believe Rob is suggesting that you move the front tired to the back as a test to help make sure that the a bad tire is not the cause of your problem. Sometimes a perfectly good looking tire can be delaminated beneath the tread or have an almost undetectable bulge that can cause symptoms like you are describing. By moving the front tires to the back, it should at least change the symptoms to some degree if a tire is the cause.

As a very generalized rule (and ASE test question), a noise or vibration with an outer CV joint will change when the front wheels are turned. Failing inner CV joints may have a more constant noise or vibration. That may be the reason the shop decided it was the intermediate shaft, but since it has no joint, that may not be the case. Other items that could cause a constant front end vibration might include:

Bad alignment.
Damaged suspension.
Bad front wheel bearing.
Damaged front brakes.
Bent wheel rim.
Bad front tires.

Rotating the front tires to the back costs nothing but time and will help eliminate or at least change two of these potential causes.

For the front wheel bearings (if not changed out already), check for one of them getting really hot after driving the car for a while. Also, while changing the front tires, pull on the wheels while jacked up off the ground. See if there is lots of play or it a bearing seems loose. See if you feel or hear a grinding while spinning the wheel by hand and coming from either a bearing or the brakes. Look and feel for anything about one wheel that is different than the other. And observed the intermediate shaft while rotating the right front wheel. The carrier bearing is really the main failure point on these. Other than the bearing, it can slip too far one way or the other if the shaft is loose from the carrier bearing.
Thanks for the info Handy. You might have missed my earlier responses that I had already rotated the tires and checked wheel bearings/tie rods by wiggling the elevated wheel (12 o'clock & 6 o'clock for wheel bearing) and (3 o'clock & 9 o'clock for tie rods).

If it helps, the Tire Kingdom $20 inspection took over an hour and at one point had 3 technicians under my car trying to find something to blame. They did say that the tires had some minor cupping, but not bad enough to cause the vibration.
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Last edited by capevape; 23 Jun 2019 at 07:57 pm.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 24 Jun 2019, 01:37 am
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Default Re: Still trying to fix steering vibration

Check the 4.72" dimension for the motor struts, as this may be a partial problem.

Rob stated the slop of the inner CV joint splines seemed excessive [from your video]. I agree. The splines of the intermediate shaft locate the inner CV joint. They should be a nice close slip fit. The pink ring locates the splines lengthwise. Do not pull the outer shaft off the int. shaft. Pry it off from the opposite side.

The video shows a different shaped inner CV joint compared to Handy's pictures. Wrong part?

Thank you Handy for the clear pictures. Nice clean engine, too. Your last pic showed a greasy hand. This is the chance you take when you shake hands with a working man.
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 07:59 am
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Default Re: Still trying to fix steering vibration

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Originally Posted by pt06 View Post
Check the 4.72" dimension for the motor struts, as this may be a partial problem.

Rob stated the slop of the inner CV joint splines seemed excessive [from your video]. I agree. The splines of the intermediate shaft locate the inner CV joint. They should be a nice close slip fit. The pink ring locates the splines lengthwise. Do not pull the outer shaft off the int. shaft. Pry it off from the opposite side.

The video shows a different shaped inner CV joint compared to Handy's pictures. Wrong part?

Thank you Handy for the clear pictures. Nice clean engine, too. Your last pic showed a greasy hand. This is the chance you take when you shake hands with a working man.
Thank you for the info. Can you provide a link for checking the dimension of the motor struts?

Should the fit of the Inner CV joint on the Intermediate shaft be snug regardless of the position of the half shaft? (for example, when it is on jack stands versus when it is on the ground) When I removed the half shaft, I followed the Haynes manual and tapped it off of the Intermediate shaft with a brass punch. Are you saying I should have pried it off instead?

While it is possible that I was sold the wrong part, I don't think the look of the part compared to Handy's photo would dictate that I have the wrong part as I have seen many similar shapes for the inner joint. The most important thing for me is that I compared it to the one that I took off of the car and it was identical.

Can anyone verify on their own Turbo model with the wheel jacked up, that there is no play on that joint? A video would be very helpful. Thank you everyone for the wonderful information!
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 24 Jun 2019, 09:55 am
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Default Re: Still trying to fix steering vibration

Here is another video in which you can clearly see the intermediate shaft bearing. IF there is a problem with the intermediate shaft, it would be something with the splines (or the female splines on the inner cv joint). I would love to see if anyone else is getting any excessive play on this setup before I dump money on more parts that won't fix my issue.

https://youtu.be/mSsuBUPUy_I
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 25 Jun 2019, 03:14 am
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Default Re: Still trying to fix steering vibration

I'd recommend buying a Haynes manual for PT Cruisers. About $20 - $30 bucks. It has a good diagram for the 4.72" [or 119 MM] dimension.

Pounding the outer axle outward is good. Pulling off the outer axle is bad. You might rip the rubber boot off.

The splines on the CV joint must be 'snug' at all times. Otherwise the splined CV joint 'shell' will wobble.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 25 Jun 2019, 05:44 am
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Default Re: Still trying to fix steering vibration

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt06 View Post
I'd recommend buying a Haynes manual for PT Cruisers. About $20 - $30 bucks. It has a good diagram for the 4.72" [or 119 MM] dimension.

Pounding the outer axle outward is good. Pulling off the outer axle is bad. You might rip the rubber boot off.

The splines on the CV joint must be 'snug' at all times. Otherwise the splined CV joint 'shell' will wobble.
Thanks...you saw my response to you above where I said I followed the Haynes manual, right?
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