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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 23 May 2003, 01:13 pm
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steve03GT

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by drew622

I'm in!!!! I bought my GT in September last year, 2nd one sold on the lot.....bar is listed on the sticker, dealer won't budge!!!!!!!!
After I get a list of those who want in, I'll get my girlfriend's lawyer to write a letter (with lots of legalese) to the proper parties at D-C and see what happens - a letter on lawyer stationary may wake them up. Ya'll help sign up all the people (name, address,VIN No., etc.)who fall into this category and keep me posted. I'll make this my good deed.[^]
Steve,

I will email you the dealer code sheets that were used for preliminary orders in late June and early July of 2002. They list the rear sway bar as standard. Also, all of the Chrysler press releases state that the GT would begin life with the Touring Edition suspension; and all Touring Editions came equipped with rear sway bar.

Someone should take a close look at the anchor points for both the Sway Bar and the Watts Linkage. My guess is that they attatch to two different parts of the rear suspension package; and for good reason. They are made to operate in tandem. I will wager that the Watts Linkage cushion/bushing life will be greatly reduced by not being aided by the sway bar's influence. Maybe this is why DC charges $70.00 for the bushing. I can think of more honorable to increase parts sales revenue, and my suggestions would not cross customer safety lines.

We all like our cruisers, but DC is turning this love affair into a "John [customer] VS Prostitute [Stealership] VS Pimp [DC]" relationship. The end result is that there is a lot of loving [can't say the word I mean] and not much affection being exchanged .

-------

While her lawyer is at it, the horn issue is also a safety issue. If the 2002 models had a dual note horn combo, you can bet it was the "minimum daily requirement" to meet safety compliance. Now that they have put the horn setup on an economic diet, you can only guess that it has to be borderline on compliance.

BTW, Count me in on the Class action suit. With Chrysler finally admitting to paint problems, fuel pump problems and clockspring problems in their mid 80 models and issuing recalls in the past 2 years to cover models that were already 15 years old; the sooner we get started the better.

I think I still have 10 to 15 good years left to hear all of DC's posturing to avoid the truth and responsibility for their actions.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 23 May 2003, 01:32 pm
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by GTPT

Thanks for the input guys. Steve keep me abreast of your plans. What do you think of Jody's idea of the online petition? What really bums me out here is the number of people that have read this topic, compared to the few that have shown an interest and replied.
Phil
I haven't posted because my sticker does not list the rear sway bar. That means I don't have a leg to stand on. While knowledge of this issue has me wondering if I should get it installed, it hasn't decreased my enjoyment of my new vehicle, nor has it got me ticked off enough to sue anyone.

I guess I just haven't experienced any cornering / handling travesties yet.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 23 May 2003, 01:58 pm
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by dgc333

A couple of things I would like to point out.

If you take a look at the window sticker on your car you will see the following;
"We reserve the right to make changes without notice and are not responsible for typographical errors. Dealers are independent and free to set their own prices."
For as long as I have been purchasing new cars there has been a statement to this effect somewhere in the documentation for the cars I have bought.

Basically that gets them off the hook regarding whether there is or is not a rear sway bar. FWIW, there was no mention of a rear sway bar on my sticker, the brochuer I picked up or on the web.

What's the big deal anyway? I certainly did not buy the PT because I was looking for an ultimate handling machine but as it is it handles better than my Shelby Daytona and at least as well as my Dodge Avenger. Typically rear sway bars are not put on cars for the US market because the typical US driver is not equiped to deal with the handling characteristics they tend to impart. It's much safer for relatively unskilled driver to deal with understeer than with oversteer that a rear sway bar tends to impart. I would venture a guess that if the PT did come with one that they would have made other changes in the suspension tuning to keep the car safely into the understeer side of the handling characteristic and would be no different than what you have now.

Making a comparison to the Dakota R/T situation is a big stretch. People were lead to believe that they had a capability (towing capacity) that they did not find out that they didn't until after they recieved the truck. With the PT there is no claim to a capability that is not there because the sway bar is not there.
I have firsthand knowlege of the differences with and without the sway bar. It is more than an issue of creating the ultimate handling machine. Remember: the folks who bought the Ford SUVs thought everything was just fine right up to the time that a flat tire cost the lives of their loved ones.

Fact 1: The sway bar does not cause oversteer, I had the bar installed and the handling remained neutral to slight understeer, you need a much stiffer bar to achieve an oversteer situation.

Fact 2: The main difference(other than cost) is that the rear is a little(and I mean only a little firmer). A sway bar effectively increases spring loading on each individual side.

Fact 3: The Watts linkage ONLY keeps the axle from shifting sideways under latteral loads.(No sway bar function here!

Fact 4: The tube inside the pressed steel twist axle is supposed to be dual function; keep the wheels straight, and work as a sway bar.

Fact 5: WHEN THE REAR "TWIST AXLE" DEFORMS IN TRYING TO ACT AS A SWAY BAR THE AXLE GEOMETRY IS THROWN OFF AND CONTROL IS DIMINISHED.
- MOST OF THE BAD STUFF OCCURRS WHEN THE CAR IS FULLY LOADED -
- WIND GUSTS CAUSE THE VEHICLE TO SWAY ABNORMALLY -
- CORNERING BECOMES MUCH TRICKIER, SWAY CONTROL LETS LOOSE, UNLIKE WHEN THE CAR IS UNLOADED (like the car has had too much to drink)-
I guess it's like your seatbelt or air bag...99% of the time they do nothing. If you are in one of those 1% times, I hope that you have the sway bar installed.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 23 May 2003, 03:48 pm
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>Fact 1: The sway bar does not cause oversteer, I had the bar installed and the handling >remained neutral to slight understeer, you need a much stiffer bar to achieve an oversteer situation.

I agree but on the scale of gross understeer to gross oversteer increasing rear roll stifness by adding a swaybar(any size bar)pushes you in the direction of oversteer.

>Fact 2: The main difference(other than cost) is that the rear is a little(and I mean only a >little firmer). A sway bar effectively increases spring loading on each individual side.

A sway bar isn't supposed to increase the spring rate when both wheels hit a bump your "little firmer" is really only a function of the friction in the bar mounts and the differences in the rotational center of the suspension verse the rotational center of the bar fighting each other. You do see an increase when one wheel hits a bump the other doesn't. The real reason for the bar is to resist body roll.

>Fact 3: The Watts linkage ONLY keeps the axle from shifting sideways under latteral loads.(No >sway bar function here!

Agree, a pretty common suspension design.

>Fact 4: The tube inside the pressed steel twist axle is supposed to be dual function; keep the wheels straight, and work as a sway bar.

Chrysler has been using an internal tube in the stamped twist axle design since the early mid 80's to tailor the roll stiffness of the twist axle design. It's easier, cheaper and more easily tailored to the desired action than having a bunch of different axles or seperate bolt on sway bar assemblies.

>Fact 5: WHEN THE REAR "TWIST AXLE" DEFORMS IN TRYING TO ACT AS A SWAY BAR THE AXLE GEOMETRY IS >THROWN OFF AND CONTROL IS DIMINISHED.
>- MOST OF THE BAD STUFF OCCURRS WHEN THE CAR IS FULLY LOADED -
>- WIND GUSTS CAUSE THE VEHICLE TO SWAY ABNORMALLY -
>- CORNERING BECOMES MUCH TRICKIER, SWAY CONTROL LETS LOOSE, UNLIKE WHEN THE CAR IS UNLOADED
>(like the car has had too much to drink)-

The twist axle is a design compromise between a solid axle with leaf springs and independent rear suspension. It's used because it is cost effective, provides acceptable performance characteristics and has minimal impact on interior space. The roll stiffness can be tailored with an external swaybar, adding or changing an internal bar or by changing the design of the axle itself. You would be suprised at how much any suspension design distorts and moves around, it not something unique to the twist axle.
I can't really comment on "fully loaded" comment the most I have loaded mine is four adults and I find nothing unusual or unsettling at mostly legal speeds. I have had the car up over 100mph on the hiway and find it to be very stable an uneffected by cross winds (not that I have driven in a storm or anything).

I was unaware that any PT's came with a seperate rear swaybar and the Chrysler web page only lists front swaybars for all of the models. It could be that they made a running change by modifying the wall thickness or diameter of the internal tube and eliminated the external bar (has the same effect and wopuld have likely been done for cost savings) and over looked the marketing literature. When you get right down to it this information is included in marketing information for just that, marketing. It does not really mean anything anything, it's the overall design of the suspension that will determine how well the car handles, not that it does or does not have a sway bar.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 24 May 2003, 09:59 am
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Guys - All this talk about something that doesn't really make a big difference seems to me to be a waste of time. IMO
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 24 May 2003, 11:16 am
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What we need is lateral acceleration and slalom course tests with and without the sway bar on the GT. The bar will either improve stability or it won't. If the GT without the 'standard' sway bar doesn't go through the slalom as fast as it does with the bar, DC is just doing the ol' cheap out on us and should have included it. If the GT doesn't go through the slalom as fast as the 'standard' PT, then DC screwed up big time and has a real safety issue on their hands.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 24 May 2003, 11:59 am
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by dgc333

>Fact 1: The sway bar does not cause oversteer, I had the bar installed and the handling >remained neutral to slight understeer, you need a much stiffer bar to achieve an oversteer situation.

I agree but on the scale of gross understeer to gross oversteer increasing rear roll stifness by adding a swaybar(any size bar)pushes you in the direction of oversteer.

>Fact 2: The main difference(other than cost) is that the rear is a little(and I mean only a >little firmer). A sway bar effectively increases spring loading on each individual side.

A sway bar isn't supposed to increase the spring rate when both wheels hit a bump your "little firmer" is really only a function of the friction in the bar mounts and the differences in the rotational center of the suspension verse the rotational center of the bar fighting each other. You do see an increase when one wheel hits a bump the other doesn't. The real reason for the bar is to resist body roll.

>Fact 3: The Watts linkage ONLY keeps the axle from shifting sideways under latteral loads.(No >sway bar function here!

Agree, a pretty common suspension design.

>Fact 4: The tube inside the pressed steel twist axle is supposed to be dual function; keep the wheels straight, and work as a sway bar.

Chrysler has been using an internal tube in the stamped twist axle design since the early mid 80's to tailor the roll stiffness of the twist axle design. It's easier, cheaper and more easily tailored to the desired action than having a bunch of different axles or seperate bolt on sway bar assemblies.

>Fact 5: WHEN THE REAR "TWIST AXLE" DEFORMS IN TRYING TO ACT AS A SWAY BAR THE AXLE GEOMETRY IS >THROWN OFF AND CONTROL IS DIMINISHED.
>- MOST OF THE BAD STUFF OCCURRS WHEN THE CAR IS FULLY LOADED -
>- WIND GUSTS CAUSE THE VEHICLE TO SWAY ABNORMALLY -
>- CORNERING BECOMES MUCH TRICKIER, SWAY CONTROL LETS LOOSE, UNLIKE WHEN THE CAR IS UNLOADED
>(like the car has had too much to drink)-

The twist axle is a design compromise between a solid axle with leaf springs and independent rear suspension. It's used because it is cost effective, provides acceptable performance characteristics and has minimal impact on interior space. The roll stiffness can be tailored with an external swaybar, adding or changing an internal bar or by changing the design of the axle itself. You would be suprised at how much any suspension design distorts and moves around, it not something unique to the twist axle.
I can't really comment on "fully loaded" comment the most I have loaded mine is four adults and I find nothing unusual or unsettling at mostly legal speeds. I have had the car up over 100mph on the hiway and find it to be very stable an uneffected by cross winds (not that I have driven in a storm or anything).

I was unaware that any PT's came with a seperate rear swaybar and the Chrysler web page only lists front swaybars for all of the models. It could be that they made a running change by modifying the wall thickness or diameter of the internal tube and eliminated the external bar (has the same effect and wopuld have likely been done for cost savings) and over looked the marketing literature. When you get right down to it this information is included in marketing information for just that, marketing. It does not really mean anything anything, it's the overall design of the suspension that will determine how well the car handles, not that it does or does not have a sway bar.
As always some people will defend what they have as good, I maybe in the same boat, but for my own personal experience.

(Without the bar) I drove to Las Vegas in my PT unloades - just me - typical high wind gusts and MANY 18 wheelers.
Two days later I drive back to LA with about 400 pounds in the back end and had more than one inciden
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 24 May 2003, 12:00 pm
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by mich_132003

Guys - All this talk about something that doesn't really make a big difference seems to me to be a waste of time. IMO
Mich and dgc333- NO FLAMES INTENDED, BUT, if you're not interested in this subject, that's fine; however, may I suggest you ignore it and stop wasting bandwidth. Obviously there are members who do want the rear sway bar, as stated in Chrysler's original articles and window sticker, and this forum allows us to proceed as one voice.[^]
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 24 May 2003, 12:32 pm
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Mich/dgc, this isn't about money, handling, or any other reason except principle. If it was listed as included equipment, then it should be on the car. A rear sway bar is listed on the sticker, not a twist bar/axle. If you look at the two, they have different part numbers as well as descriptions. The two are not the same regardless of what the manufacturer states. Their opinion that they both serve the same purpose is akin to telling me that the AM radio that came in my cruiser instead of the compact disc also serve the same purpose, they both play music. If it had not been listed as delivered equipment there wouldn't be a problem, but that's not the case.
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Old 26 May 2003, 10:36 pm
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Quote:
quote:Mich and dgc333- NO FLAMES INTENDED, BUT, if you're not interested in this subject, that's fine; however, may I suggest you ignore it and stop wasting bandwidth. Obviously there are members who do want the rear sway bar, as stated in Chrysler's original articles and window sticker, and this forum allows us to proceed as one voice.[^]
Steve - When you say things like "wasting bandwidth" is a concern of yours and you see a class action lawsuit against DC as productive, then I suggest you go right ahead, spend your time and energy on a process that will be a waist of time, energy, and money - except of course - for the lawyers. I'm all for principles but I guarantee you will get no where with this.
P.S. I'm am very concerned about issues and if you don't mind, I will continue speaking on this forum regardless of your "bandwidth concerns", if that's OK with you.
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