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180 HP Turbo Engine

 
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 29 Sep 2003, 01:04 pm
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Removing the Cargo net from the GT must have saved at most $5. Kind of like the guy that found a substantial savings by removing the tomato from the airline salad. Look now, they have removed the meal altogeather. This downward spiral of "less for more" is everywhere, DCX is not alone. Many of the younger people just take it for granted; they wonder why the old guys are whining all the time.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 29 Sep 2003, 01:47 pm
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Kirby

Imagine if it got out that the only diff between the new 180 and the "High Output" was computer programming.......Now you know why they are running like bandits to keep the aftermarket guys off balance!!!!!

WHY NO NEW ENGINE?---It would be much too expensive for DCX to :
A) Create a whole new build line to create a new engine
B) Have a different acquisition and assembly proceedures
C) Track and manage a whole new driveline package
D) Do specific quality and durability testing on a package that might only be 15-20% of the PT sales. (They do NOT want to have to deal with warranty!)

They have just reprogrammed the 215hp; timing, advance curves, torque and HP limits, fuel delivery.
!! -ZAP- !! Viola...MUCH CHEAPER 180 ENGINE!!!

This is the same reasoning behind selling you the extra HP that is already in your 215HP engine, just in reverse! It does make you wonder why they would go through all the DEQ on the 180 and not bother with the Stage I & II PCM ?

MB has been notorious for equating HP and sales price.....look at the Misfire; a restyled SLK with the outdated suspension and drivetrain (they jettisoned the old stuff this year because it just wasn't up to the competition). MB has limited the Misfire to a little over 200HP, while you can buy the SLK with almost 400HP in the AMG version.
P.S.(By the way the modified version has full warranty, imagine that!)
I agree that the PT light pressure turbo is most likely the exact same engine hardware as found on the GT. However I suspect the tuning limitation is purely mass-air limitations. Cut timing, and you loose economy. Cut fuel is only done to limit RPM - and it is an all or nothing situation. Scaling back fuel is a bad idea on any gasoline engine.

So why sell a 180 hp version? You can sell it with a lesser transmission, brakes, etc. With reduced torque, you don't need the autostick trans. The standard unit works fine apparently.
Of course you don't need to buy the 180 HP version - it's not for me. Get the "220 hp" version.
What makes it cheaper is the package. Also someone who is looking at this package will appreciate the 87 octane tune for less expensive fill-ups. With the lesser octane you will not get the higher output safely anyway.

Buy the AMG as a package (with the car), and yes you get a waranty. Buy the parts and install them yourself, and the situation is different.

By a Saleen Mustang, and you get a waranty. Buy Ford Racing Parts, and you don't.

However buy a TRD supercharger for your Toyota 4Runner and have it installed at a participating dealer, and you get a waranty. This seems reasonable. However I suspect they played it safe on the tune to ensure they can waranty it.
It is hard to have it all, but you have choices... If you don't like what is offered, don't buy it.

I have no idea what you are trying accomplish to compare to with the SLK vs. Crossfire.
[xx(]

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 29 Sep 2003, 04:07 pm
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Big Al,
Thank you for your thoughts on this topic, I am sure there are more than just a few people interested in this topic.

My point was: DCX in making the "low pressure" turbo was merely taking off the shelf items, detuning them, and making the path to re-constitute the horsepower already built in difficult. The method of de-tuning is merely semantics if the base engine is the same, and aparently it is.
e.g. Why no 5 speed transmission - this isn't a case of cheaper! I don't think you will find that there is any $$ reason for 'only' automatic transmission, other than to prevent the tuners from reconstituting the de-tuned 180 into the Stage II. (Make the drivetrain so weak they won't attempt it.)

You have answered your own question and raised more as you talked about AMG and TRD warranting aftermarket parts. (Does this mean that a Stage I installed at the dealership gets a written warranty now?)


Lastly is the dissapointing (and I wish it wasn't so) Missfire, a reconstitution of MB SLK parts, made by MB in Europe (not by Americans) from discontinued SLK drivetrain, suspension, and other parts (kind of like buying a new - used car), in an attempt to satisfy some investors that there really some synergy between the mothership and the poor little Chrysler company. My own dissapointment other than the poor power for an expensive Chrysler 2-seater is that the engineers were so sloppy that they made it almost uninhabitable by over 6 footers.
I made the comparrison because MB has made sure that the "lesser model cannot compete with the "real SLK", again by de-tuning and under-engineering.
My original quote, using their engineering prowess to "Limit the Value" rather than maximize it.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 29 Sep 2003, 04:22 pm
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By the way, one professed Chrysler engine designer swears that ANY turbo can use 87 octane fuel because of the extremely efficient knock sensors.

Scratch another reason for the PT Light pressure Turbo.

Kind of reminds me of the story of the product FDS, when an underarm deodorant spray was marketed as "freshener" for women to create a new market.

It was Hitler that said "If you tell a lie long enough, it becomes the truth".
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 29 Sep 2003, 04:41 pm
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OK, the first major complaint on the original PT cruiser was that it was UNDERpowered. Does everyone remember this?

When DC responded with the GT, people started complaining about it being OVERpriced. Does everyone remember this?

Now, DC has responded with an adequately powered car at a reasonable price.

Won't we ever be happy?
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 29 Sep 2003, 04:44 pm
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I think GTSteve has a point.

This car is in between.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 29 Sep 2003, 04:55 pm
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My good friend Herschel here has a very good point too.

The 180 HP engine is for people who want more power without the added cost of bigger wheels, brakes, etc...

They only make it automatic because enthusiasts would buy the 220 HP car, not the 180 HP car, it's very expensive to produce a car in low quantities.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 29 Sep 2003, 04:59 pm
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Kirby

Big Al,
Why no 5 speed transmission - this isn't a case of cheaper! I don't think you will find that there is any $$ reason for 'only' automatic transmission, other than to prevent the tuners from reconstituting the de-tuned 180 into the Stage II. (Make the drivetrain so weak they won't attempt it.)
So offering two types of transmissions is no more expensive than offering one? I disagree with you here. The people buying with manual transmissions are either really cheap (would buy the non-turbo PT) or want optimal performance (would buy the GT). I think it was wise of DC to only offer the 180HP with the automatic. It wouldn't sell many of the manual versions.
Do you really think DC is that concerned about "tuners?" They detuned the turbo to offer it in a less expensive package to sell cars in a segment that wasn't previously offered. It also allows for the premium of the GT package.
The GT package (as offered in '03) with better wheels, tires, trans, brakes, ABS, etc are all appropriate for a higher horse unit such as the 220 version. I am not all that fond of the '04 leather and chrome wheels only arrangement. I got my '03 knowing that an '04 would cost me notably more than the base GT I bought.

Quote:
quote:
You have answered your own question and raised more as you talked about AMG and TRD warranting aftermarket parts. (Does this mean that a Stage I installed at the dealership gets a written warranty now?)
Perhaps DC will offer a stage 0.5 for dealer installation with waranty? We get some things out of the current and planned Staged offerings that would most likely have been scaled back if waranty was in play. Life is full of compromises.

Quote:
quote:My original quote, using their engineering prowess to "Limit the Value" rather than maximize it.
MB does this too - thus allowing for the AMG units at significantly higher cost/profit. What package do you see that is unlimited and yet still affordable as offerred from the big manufacturers?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 29 Sep 2003, 05:00 pm
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Your point assumes that a PT buyer will only buy a PT. Not true!
When a potential car buyer looks for transportation, VALUE is the thing that begins the process. I need these things in a car... the prices of automobiles that satisfy these needs are...

As long as your clientel is market ignorant, you can sell the same car for different prices, but some people actually research their purchases. If they smell a rat, they shop elsewhere. When you depend on slick sales people that trap buyers, you will eventually fail. Marketing shenanegans lose customers when they are uncovered.

I feel that the PT could be a great value, but the production of same is sometimes a little distant from reality, and on another planet when customer satisfaction is concerned.
MEX has said it in many posts, his heart is in the right place, he wants his customers to get a fair deal. It's the guys at the top that can screw up the deal.

If you don't believe me, check out new car sales.....that's when the truth strikes home.

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 29 Sep 2003, 05:11 pm
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Herschel

IF you are SO
UNHAPPY with your Chrysler Product, GO(you have
my permission) and buy a General Motors or Ford
or WHATEVER ELSE Machine and let it the .... GO,ALREADY--NEXT TOPIC PLEASE. H.
Sorry to boore you with my comments, I didn't know that this was the Chrysler cheer leading thread. I thought that we were discussing the pros and cons of the new "mid" model PT.
My Mistake![xx(]
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