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-   -   Typical TPS range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi (http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67416)

MPT 13 Jan 2021 05:35 pm

Typical Throttle Position Sensor range ?
 
Typical Throttle Position Sensor range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi

On a handheld scanner with live data our cruisers Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) readings show 14.5% at idle, and if I put the pedal to the floor - the TPS won’t get above ~63% and it sputters yet settles right down back to a reasonable 20-30% if I let up on the gas. Same readings if I operate the throttle from under the hood with Key on (engine off)… (the sensor has never been changed as far as we know -as original owners)

Too, when driving & accelerating hard, the sensor seems to give momentary readings like 210% 320% before reporting a reasonable value…

So, the range on our TPS is 14.5%-63%, and since we've started looking we've never seen a “Zero %” ...

Is this normal…?

Other than that no fault codes or anything, and performance seems reasonable.

**** Also, we were wondering if this sensor performance and max value much less than 85% would keep either the CAT or O2 drive cycles from either starting or completing…? I recall seeing somewhere that some drive cycles want to see the throttle above 85%. ****

BTW Less than 1k mi ago the throttle body was cleaned well, so dirt doesn't seem a factor. We've heard it's possible the sensor can be (re) installed incorrectly, though looking at the assembly diagrams & mating part configurations it seems impossible to assemble wrong…

Any thoughts..?

(Much obliged for any help..! )


Oh... Also, maybe related, we have a long-present P0016 (crankshaft/camshaft timing misalignment) yet the car seems to run just fine and has for ~30kmi since the code appeared.
And, the cam and crank sensors were recently replaced with OEM to make sure they're not marginally performing (since both were originals and its ‘cheap insurance’ (and will never have to be done again :)).
The P0016 appeared because the timing was ~ ½ tooth off after we changed the timing belt ~30kmi ago, yet we were done for the day and never got back to it.
Amazingly the car passed inspection (~year ago April) with the MIL light on at the time as we recall (though supposedly a car cant pass inspection with any MIL on - go figure?!?).
So we're trying to get to no more than one drive-cycle not-ready so we can see if the inspection will pass (like last-time) and are wondering if this sensor is preventing the drive cycle completions needed for inspection.

booter2004 14 Jan 2021 09:01 am

Re: Typical TPS range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi
 
I can tell you that on the 3 pt cruisers I've had, as well as neons and caravans that use the same TPS, the min is 13.7 - 14.5 and max is (I wanna say) approximately 70. As long as your reading is consistent and fluid, then it's performing as expected. I would be more concerned about vacuum readings if your timing is half a tooth off. Also, the ecm only knows the positions of the intake cam and the crank, if the exhaust cam is off, the computer won't know. The only reason it runs is bc the knock sensor is retarding or advancing timing to compensate. But it's not right. And is more likely your performance issue. Hope my info was helpful.

MPT 14 Jan 2021 10:23 am

Re: Typical TPS range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi
 
Booter2004 - Your info was definitely helpful…! ...Thanks very much for your reply…! Sounds like your diagnosis is spot on…
I have alot to learn about intake & exhaust cams & other sensors that affect engine operation & other systems.

I'm guessing that given the P0016, there’s no question that the PCM is seeing that the crank and cam/s are (truly?) out of phase, and that there isn't some other issue causing the P0016 like a wiring problem - etc. or I'd be getting other code-faults and poor engine performance & driveability issues... Yes ?

Also, I guess the cam sensor is monitoring the intake-cam if the exhaust cam is ~less consequential… True?

The big followup-question: If the cam sensor is monitoring the intake cam then if / when redoing the timing belt we should --at least-- make sure that the crank and the intake cam are on their proper belt teeth for-timing-alignment so at least they're in proper sync and wont throw the P0016…??

………………….……………..

Very Interesting that you mention vacuum…
Ever since and immediately after the timing belt change (30k mi ago) our cruise control wouldn't show up in the instrument panel and so no longer worked.

Well, (very recently) after doing some unrelated wiring repair and seeing and re-seating the cruise control connector at the servo I was able to get the cruise indicator to show up in the instrument panel, and I could even set and use the cruise control as intended when first starting out to drive (without a long warm-up)...

However, thereafter, as soon as the engine starts to warm up, the cruise control cruise indicator disappears from the instrument panel and disengages and cannot be “re-illuminated” until the car has cooled off from sitting.
Could this be due to the exhaust vacuum concerns you mentioned…?

Also. Too, do you think a vacuum issue, knock sensor, or the mis-timing is keeping the CAT or O2 drive cycles from completing..? It’s been about 500+ miles and I’ve tried to drive the drive cycles to no avail (though it’s also hard to drive with a steady throttle without a reliable cruise control)...?

(Thanks for sharing any further thoughts…)

.

ptcruisersteve 14 Jan 2021 05:53 pm

Re: Typical TPS range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi
 
This was mentioned by another member. Hope this helps you.

First is, the PCM has 2 timers. Throttle time and Exhaust time. Both count up and down from 0 minutes to 5 minutes. And they both need to be over 2 and half minutes before the system will even attempt to run monitors.

They are not visible in any OBD scanner or data list. Only in the factory DRBiii scanner and even then only in a special OBD monitor section under the pretest section for the monitor you are testing.

So how do you get them to count? The throttle timer counts up when the throttle is open and counts down when it is closed. The exhaust timer counts up when the vehicle is in motion and counts down when it is stopped. The secret is that neither will start counting until the PCM sees wide open throttle, at least 85%.

These timers can be found on all Chrysler’s from 1998 to mid-2006. Some only have 1 timer, most PT’s have both. I’ve seen cars with aftermarket floor mats that keep the gas pedal for reaching that 85% threshold. I’ve also seen defective throttle position sensors and vehicle speed sensors that keep the timers from counting. But you can monitor those inputs with most OBD scan tools.

I know this is referring to a turbo.

On the 2.4 turbo engines I’ve seen where the Cam Timing for the Exhaust Camshaft is off a half a tooth or more and that keeps the engine load just out of the required range run the full Catalyst monitor. It will only run the Fast Pass and not set the monitor to complete. It will not set a check engine light either as the Exhaust Cam is not monitored, only the Intake Cam. Also the timing belt needs to be tight and have no play in it. Some of the aftermarket belts will stretch after they run in and that pulls it out timing just enough to not run the monitor.

ptcruisersteve 14 Jan 2021 06:21 pm

Re: Typical TPS range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi
 
This might help you but it is general information for all Chryslers

Chrysler Drive Cycle Information


All Monitor Drive Trace


Pre-Conditioning Requirements:

- MIL must be off

- Cold start (Note: cold start temperature is undefined)


Driving Procedure

1) Warm engine up for five minutes (must reach closed loop)

2) Drive (with steady throttle) at a speed between 40 and 60 mph for 8 minutes.

3) Stop and idle for 3 minutes.

4) Drive (with steady throttle) at a speed above 20 mph for 2 minutes.

5) Turn key off, leave off for ten minutes (to run O2 sensor heater monitor).

Note: Due to the limited preconditions provided with this drive trace, NCVECS recommends using the monitor

specific drive traces for Chrysler vehicles.


Catalyst Monitor Drive Trace


Pre-Conditioning Requirements:

- MIL must be off.

- No DTCs present.

- Fuel level is between 15% and 85% full.

These next three are confusing. The coolant temp needs to be above 70. Is that after what I think is revving the engine at between 1350 and 1900 for 90 seconds?

- ECT above 70º F.

- Engine must have run at least 90 seconds

- Engine between 1,350 & 1,900 rpm.

Driving Procedure

and then letting it idle for 5 minutes?

1) Idle vehicle for five minutes (to reach closed loop operation).

2) Drive with a steady vehicle speed between 30 and 45 mph for 2 minutes.


EGR System Monitor Drive Trace - Vacuum controlled


Pre-Conditioning Requirements:

- MIL must be off.

Driving Procedure

1) Idle vehicle for five minutes (to reach closed loop operation).

2) Drive with a steady vehicle speed between 40 & 60 mph for 8 minutes.


EGR System Monitor Drive Trace - Electronic


Pre-Conditioning Requirements:

- MIL must be off.

- MAP must be between 0-60 KPa.

- Engine speed between 500-850 rpm.

- ECT is above 180º F (90º C).

- No misfire temporary (pending) or matured fault present.

- A/C clutch, PS Switch and Cooling fans do not change state (turn off).

Driving Procedure

1) Idle vehicle for five (5) minutes (to reach closed loop operation).

2) Drive with a steady vehicle speed between 40 & 60 mph for 2 minutes.

3) Idle vehicle for three (3) minutes.

Note: This monitor evaluates EGR flow based on a change of engine roughness (idle stability).

Conditions causing un-stable idle will prevent this monitor from running.


Evaporative System Monitor Drive Trace


Trace 1: Standard Type

Pre-Conditioning Requirements:

- MIL must be off.

- No Evaporative DTCs present.

- Fuel level is between ½ and full.

(Note: monitor may still run with tank fill between 15% and 85%).

Driving Procedure

1) Idle vehicle for five minutes (to reach closed loop operation).

2) Drive with a steady vehicle speed between 30 and 45 mph for 2 minutes.

Trace 2: Leak Detection Pump

Pre-Conditioning Requirements:

- MIL must be off.

- No Evaporative DTCs present.

- Fuel level is between 30 & 85 % full.

Driving Procedure

1) Cold soak vehicle, start and idle vehicle for 4 minutes.

2) Drive in-town (stop and go) for 5 minutes, using smooth accelerations and decelerations.

3) Stop and idle vehicle for 4 minutes.


O2 Sensor Monitor Drive Trace


Pre-Conditioning Requirements:

- MIL must be off.

Driving Procedure

1) Idle vehicle for five minutes (to reach closed loop operation).

2) Drive with a steady vehicle speed above 25 mph for 2 minutes.

3) Stop and idle for 30 seconds.

4) Smoothly accelerate to a speed between 30 and 40 mph.

5) Repeat steps 3 & 4 five (5) times.


O2 Sensor Heater Monitor Drive Trace


Pre-Conditioning Requirements:

- MIL must be off.

Driving Procedure

1) Idle vehicle for five minutes (to reach closed loop operation).

2) Shut engine off and leave vehicle off for ten minutes

MPT 14 Jan 2021 11:47 pm

Re: Typical TPS range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi
 
Ptcruisersteve… Thanks !
We’d heard of the countdowns yet wasn't sure how they worked, so thanks-much…

...Looks like there’s the 85% we heard-about…

If the 85% requirement is true, and if our throttle sensor can’t get to 85% …???
…...
I just rechecked and the max our throttle sensor can do is 75.3% when wide open (operated via gas pedal with engine off & also manually under the hood). During driving the max reading (as-last-checked) is ~63%-65% (floor mats are out of the way)...

Barring some mechanical issue with the throttle system, will a NEW sensor for-sure likely have a better % range…?
(If so, then at least this sensor needs to be replaced; unless we’ve got it installed wrong)

I just checked to see if the throttle is still clean and looked into the throttle body at-rest, and it seems perfectly closed (and clean) - so no dirt etc. hanging it ‘open’ at what live data calls “14.5 %” when at-rest / closed throttle.

Also by back-probing the connector we checked the voltages at the closed throttle position and its 0.25V when closed, and measures 3.75V at the max-open throttle position (which the live data shows as 75% open -which sounds reasonable for a 3.75V value, though the throttle can't open any further).
If our wide open was showing 100% with this sensor it’d probably show a 4.5 value… its like the upper end calibration of this sensor somehow shifted to be only 75% (3.75V), and the lower end (closed throttle plate) is raised to be 15.5% when it should be ~0%... it’s like the whole sensor’s range seems stretched somehow (and beyond the mechanical range of the throttle :eek:).

[:::::IMPORTANT UPDATE:::::

Update removed because verification confirmed the original voltage reports
(If I could figure out how to use strikeouts I would use that vs update-removal :) )

More to come...!


:::::UPDATE END:::::]


(FYI The speed sensor is smooth and reasonable via the code reader live data and matches the speedometer)

So, aside from a mis-assembly (which I'll check tomorrow), it looks like a new sensor is needed.


RE DRIVE CYCLES:
For what it's worth, the car has always had the P0016 near-term, and we know for a fact the EVAP drive cycle recently changed from “incomplete” to “completed” with the MIL “on” for the P0016.
So, we’re wondering just how “real” the “No MIL requirement” actually is (for drive cycle starts and completions, and maybe for the state inspection computer too :rolleyes:); I’m hoping it’s “not” too critical (and it may depend on the type of cycle too?).

As an aside, thanks for posting the detailed drive cycles; I’ve been trying these (published somewhere) for some time now to get the O2 and CAT to complete to no avail, though all the other cycles have completed.
Without the cruise control and with this possible reduced throttle-% we're wondering if it's having some effect to prevent these these last two cycles from completing…

The thought about engine load being just under the test-start-requirement due to a timing issue is a good one -something to think on...

(Thanks much for all the help & Any further thoughts are always welcomed..!) :)

MPT 15 Jan 2021 10:57 am

Re: Typical TPS range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi
 
Just re-posting the above update so it doesn't get missed by anyone who's already read the previous post...

[:::::IMPORTANT UPDATE:::::

Update removed because verification confirmed the original voltage reports
(If I could figure out how to use strikeouts I would use that vs update-removal :) )

More to come...!

:::::UPDATE END:::::]

MPT 15 Jan 2021 06:36 pm

Re: Typical TPS range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi
 
This thing really has us stumped…! I checked it all out again today and all seems rock solid, except for the %... !
The sensor resistance is exactly 5K ohms across the leads, and there's no ‘bounce’ or flakiness when viewed on a mini-scope (DSO), and the voltages were very repeatable (max=3.75V & giving 75% value at the throttle-motion hard-stop limit, 0.25v at idle position)…

PS If anyone has a live data scanner & wants a fun, easy experiment, and to maybe share their results, it would be incredibly helpful to know what max throttle % others get when they push their accelerators to the floor, and when it’s released - no need to even start the car or to drive around….!! : )

Here’s HOW: ...Just hook up the scanner, put the key in the ignition to the run position, find the “TPS” parameter from the live data list, press the gas pedal to the floor & note the maximum % the TPS gets (and maybe note the minimum % when the pedal is released..?) and report back here with what you found… : )) …
EASY..! :)

...Our TPS doesn't get above 75% or lower than 15.5%. Some drive cycles need the computer to see 85% throttle, so there’s a problem…

Before we spend $128 on a new, OEM TPS that may do just what mine is now, we’re thinking of going to the salvage yard tomorrow & picking up a few TPS’s for comparison & tryout, to see if “investing” in a new OEM sensor is likely to change anything for the better. Its likely the cars are in the salvage yard aren't there due a broken TPS !! :Lol :D)

Stay tuned…! As always, thanks for any help or insights shared…! : )

MPT 19 Jan 2021 06:07 am

Re: Typical TPS range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi
 
Over the weekend we got 3 TPS sensors of 2005 and later vintage from a salvage yard 35 min away. The resistance values are slightly different than mine yet none helped; the voltage and min-max throttle % are same as before with my original sensor. And, there's nothing obvious that is amiss so-far with the throttle body or cabling, etc..

So I'm beginning to wonder if the sensor and throttle body are “as-designed??”


I have a neighbor and a distant friend with a Cruiser so maybe I’ll see if I can check if their throttle performance is any different…

Apart from that, maybe I’ll just change the timing belt (and make sure that other things that can affect timing-mismatch are not factors… such as the camshaft to sprocket alignment dowel pins being not sheared or damaged, etc).

MPT 21 Jan 2021 10:19 am

Re: Typical TPS range ? - 2005 non-turbo - 210k mi
 
2 Attachment(s)
One step closer…? We now know what isn't a problem… : )

A fellow Cruiser (with a 2007) with zero problems (scanner verified all drive cycles complete-green and no codes or engine lights) and their throttle/TPS has the exact same percent range as mine (14.5% to 75.4%).

So, we now have no idea what to think about the 85% throttle requirement for some drive cycles (maybe originally meant 85% engine load..?).

Wondering if the P0016 (or what else?) is keeping the CAT & O2 drive cycles from completing…Maybe for those-two cycles the “MIL off” is an absolute requirement since all my others have completed with the MIL on... Something else which may possibly be is that I replaced the downstream O2 sensor (OEM) a while ago & wonder if I need to do any special reset other than having the battery disconnected &-or clearing the codes with the handheld scanner...
Anyone with thoughts or insights on the timing & trouble code or O2 sensor replacement or etc affecting drive cycles please weigh in…? ...Thanks! :)

I guess the next step is to go ahead and check the timing belt & pulley positions, likely with a timing belt change (OEM) while everything is pretty much apart…
Hopefully, when done, the MIL for crank & cam timing misalignment will turn off (and allow passing-inspection?). :rolleyes:

PS - last summer when the car had other wiring issues (& barely ran when air temperatures got extra hot in the summer heat) a shop did a scan & printout (attached) of the crank and cam position signals and said that it appeared the timing was about a half-or-more teeth off-spec and noted they weren’t sure though they had tried to look up the signals’ relative timing specs online but couldn't find much more at that time. [I fixed the many exposed wiring issues of the time & now the car runs quite well/as-a-daily-driver.]
If anyone with experience sees something pro or con in the attached signal traces, please feel free to comment…
We’re kind of at a loss on that at the moment … :eek::)


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