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Why no rear swaybar?

 
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05 Dec 2013, 10:07 am
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Default Re: Why no rear swaybar?

interesting stuff here,..!
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 05 Dec 2013, 11:31 am
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Default Re: Why no rear swaybar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CREWZIN View Post
From PT Do-It-Yourself.net ......


TSB: 02-004-02
Issue Date: October 28, 2002
Year & Model Affected: 2003 PT Cruiser

Discussion

.
While I often refer to TSB these are not always accurate or empirical. Some of us Technicians have access to be able to enter information as we see it much the same as on wikipedia. For those not knowing this anyone can get an account on wiki and edit or enter information new or already available. Makes you go hmmm when your read some things on there?

This TSB that you posted and I have seen used before on PT Forums was never proven to be accurate or from Chrysler?
Maybe I should go find it and do a revision in the TSB information?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busted_PT View Post
But that internal bar measures the same diameter on the 01.
I think that was to give dealers something to tell the customer and get this under control.
Danny aka Busted_PT is correct. We cut a few 2002 axles with and without factory rear sway bars and also contacted many PT cruiser owner with different years to verify measurements. Also the axle assembly is completely interchangeable throughout the PT Cruiser years. Even OEM part numbers you can see in the master interchangeability for the rear axle assembly with no notation for a rear sway bar.

A test run and Data measurement using a D-PIC on a 200foot skid pad was conducted with and without a factory rear sway bar. Although there was a slight increase with a factory sway bar the results in the lateral G numbers would translate in the real world for feeling on the "butt meter" would be negligible. In other words you would probably not notice a difference?
What was found is that Chrysler seemed to be unsettled in the spring rate. The part numbers are all over the place with application and years. Likewise testing spring rates found no universal set of rules?
This may be why some may have felt an increase in anti sway when a factory sway bars was installed? So IMO I would not run out and get rear springs from a Turbo GT Convertible thinking they have a higher spring rate.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 05 Dec 2013, 07:18 pm
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Default Re: Why no rear swaybar?

The Chrysler TSB is real. I found it with a 30 second search on the net (4th from the bottom)........
Manuals and bulletins for 2003 Chrysler Truck PT Cruiser L4-2.4L Turbo VIN G
Now I wasn't able to open it and read it word for word because I'm not "subscribed" but I see enough to ask the conspiracy theorists to sit down and keep quiet.

Here are the extent of the "tests" that I had done in the past:
I bought a showroom new, Cruiser GT Turbo without a anti-sway bar and I drove it for a year +/- and I felt that it handled pretty well. Well a lot of owners were all excited about putting back the "sway bar that Chrysler left off" and naturally I got infected with the idea because maybe I was missing out, too. So I got the complete Mopar sway bar kit and put it on. My first reaction was "Holy scats! That's different. Not better, but noticeably "different". Like putting ball bearing under the tires.

My second reaction was "I can easily see why Chrysler didn't slap a bar on this GT. The vast majority of unwashed owners, their wives and daughters, would be way over their heads with this setup. No way can anyone sell a car from the factory with this overly quick steering. It's not safe for the average driver". I have race car experience. I'm adaptable. I didn't hate it. I left the bar on and adjusted my driving. I just wouldn't be handing over the keys to any teenagers.

My third "test" was more anecdotal. Back then I owned a current Cruiser body repair manual for estimating "book" costs for parts and labor hours at that time. I remember seeing very different part numbers and prices for rear axles which led me to assume that the rear axles were different for different models.

I wouldn't have done a parking lot skid pad test because steady state cornering doesn't give the best answers in regards to sway bars. No wonder the results were so vague. At best it can tell you if under steer or over steer are present. A slalom test probably would have been better because of the transitions of weight and steering angles.

All I can conclude from this years long discussion is that the jury is still out on who did what. I see people on both sides holding tightly to their predetermined biases. Personally, I don't see that anyone got gypped starting in 2003 because of no external sway bar. Anyone is free to add a bar, remove a bar or go to a bar as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 05 Dec 2013, 09:24 pm
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Talking Re: Why no rear swaybar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroPT View Post
anyone can get an account on wiki
It should be noted,I have thought of a new term for 'some' of those posting 'dumb',or mis-information on Wiki....."Wiki-diots!"
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Old 05 Dec 2013, 10:16 pm
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Default Re: Why no rear swaybar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2step View Post
The Chrysler TSB is real. I found it with a 30 second search on the net (4th from the bottom)........
Manuals and bulletins for 2003 Chrysler Truck PT Cruiser L4-2.4L Turbo VIN G
My first reaction was "Holy scats! That's different. Not better, but noticeably "different". Like putting ball bearing under the tires.

My second reaction was "I can easily see why Chrysler didn't slap a bar on this GT. The vast majority of unwashed owners, their wives and daughters, would be way over their heads with this setup. No way can anyone sell a car from the factory with this overly quick steering. It's not safe for the average driver". I have race car experience. I'm adaptable. I didn't hate it. I left the bar on and adjusted my driving. I just wouldn't be handing over the keys to any teenagers.
Are you giving some validity to my theory about the rear sway making the back end come around more unexpectedly? I felt it had very quick steering and I too liked it. I was forced to overcorrect at the last minute in a turn to avoid an obstacle. It had to be quick, was not smooth, and that jerk-type motion brought the back end around, when a smooth maneuver would have probably been ok. Still it left me wondering what happened. I had never had a car go from being in complete control to completely out of control so quickly. No warning

If what you saying is true, I would still gladly go back to that set up, but I would be wiser and more cautious from experience. And, only push the envelope in turns where I can see the whole turn and have a safe runout if everything goes south.

Are you commenting on hygiene with "unwashed"?
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06 Dec 2013, 01:32 am
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Talking Re: Why no rear swaybar?

I did a lot of background checking and loads of testing having to do with the PTs rear suspension. As far as I can see no one else did this. I would gladly perform a test of anyone's PT to measure their lateral G data. It is used to develope suspension upgrades and is very accurate. There is more to testing then simply going around in a circle. I shortened the explanation down a bit foe ease of posting as a full explanation would have been really long and technical. I know at least one member knows me better then that?
The axles are all the same there were no changes made from 01-06 easily verified. Not sure for the rest of the years because of discontinued and superseded numbers?
I am confident that the springs were the largest factor in different handling
Charactorisrics of most PTs not whether a rear sway bar was present. I am also confident that this reporting feeling a large difference after installing a factory rear sway bar had other suspension issues and that we are not getting the complete history. I have a coil spring rate tool and will happily measure anyone's spring for them.

A good service manager at a Chrysler dealership will explain about that easily found on the internet TSB and it origin. Before if gets counted as the word somebody should check into it? I did.
I was not clear enough in my last response that any Technician can get an account to enter TSBs.
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Last edited by NitroPT; 06 Dec 2013 at 01:37 am.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06 Dec 2013, 09:29 am
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Default Re: Why no rear swaybar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroPT View Post
I did a lot of background checking and loads of testing having to do with the PTs rear suspension. As far as I can see no one else did this. I would gladly perform a test of anyone's PT to measure their lateral G data. It is used to develope suspension upgrades and is very accurate. There is more to testing then simply going around in a circle. I shortened the explanation down a bit foe ease of posting as a full explanation would have been really long and technical. I know at least one member knows me better then that?
The axles are all the same there were no changes made from 01-06 easily verified. Not sure for the rest of the years because of discontinued and superseded numbers?
I am confident that the springs were the largest factor in different handling
Charactorisrics of most PTs not whether a rear sway bar was present. I am also confident that this reporting feeling a large difference after installing a factory rear sway bar had other suspension issues and that we are not getting the complete history. I have a coil spring rate tool and will happily measure anyone's spring for them.

A good service manager at a Chrysler dealership will explain about that easily found on the internet TSB and it origin. Before if gets counted as the word somebody should check into it? I did.
I was not clear enough in my last response that any Technician can get an account to enter TSBs.
So you are saying, anybody that has an account ( any technician) can say whatever they want regardless of it's validity. And is not necessarily the opinion of chrysler engineers or Chrysler itself?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06 Dec 2013, 09:54 am
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Default Re: Why no rear swaybar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busted_PT View Post
So you are saying, anybody that has an account ( any technician) can say whatever they want regardless of it's validity. And is not necessarily the opinion of chrysler engineers or Chrysler itself?
Danny not many are reading and yes to your response.

I friken cut right in half a 2002 PT Cruiser that came stock with a rear sway bar and a 2006 axle and did complete measurements they are the same. What some are just not getting is that many other factors are involved with how a suspension reacts to anti sway parts which includes tire wheel SPRINGS shock and not limited to any of these the overall condition of the suspension it self.

I would like to see someone that is posting with such great authority and experience to simple try a simple test with their PT Cruiser and install or remove a factory sway bar with ALL factory parts and do a simple run on their own special road with a turn and use the various program available for smart phones with accelerometers and post the results. Then we would at least have someone other member with some real data and not "BUTT DYNO" arm chair computer experts responding here!with some real information that to debate a
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Old 06 Dec 2013, 07:17 pm
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Default Re: Why no rear swaybar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gru View Post
Are you giving some validity to my theory about the rear sway making the back end come around more unexpectedly? I felt it had very quick steering and I too liked it. I was forced to overcorrect at the last minute in a turn to avoid an obstacle. It had to be quick, was not smooth, and that jerk-type motion brought the back end around, when a smooth maneuver would have probably been ok. Still it left me wondering what happened. I had never had a car go from being in complete control to completely out of control so quickly. No warning

If what you saying is true, I would still gladly go back to that set up, but I would be wiser and more cautious from experience. And, only push the envelope in turns where I can see the whole turn and have a safe runout if everything goes south.

Are you commenting on hygiene with "unwashed"?
That's not a theory, that's a fact. Adding a bar or more bar in the rear makes the car turn in quicker and can cause the rear to push out and come around. Now pay attention and don't get excited on me. I'm not saying what you did was wrong. I did the exact same thing. As a rule, car manufacturers set their cars up with pretty conservative handling with some understeer. It's a popular modification with drivers who want a bit more aggressive handling to add a rear bar. Adding just a rear bar does result in quicker steering (less understeer) but it also changes the balance. The rule of thumb is "more bar in rear = less understeer, more bar in front = more understeer". You can buy just a rear bar or just a bigger front bar.....or you can buy a kit with both which will probably turn out to have a good 'balance' but still be quicker handling than stock.

Putting on just a rear bar does not make your car a death trap. Plenty of owners have done it and they are not killing themselves in large numbers. But you do need to remain aware that the balance is going to be a tad quirky because you haven't also "upgraded" the front bar. This is why I say it's not a good idea for your average unconscious, incompetent driver (the "unwashed").

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroPT View Post
Danny not many are reading and yes to your response.

I friken cut right in half a 2002 PT Cruiser that came stock with a rear sway bar and a 2006 axle and did complete measurements they are the same. What some are just not getting is that many other factors are involved with how a suspension reacts to anti sway parts which includes tire wheel SPRINGS shock and not limited to any of these the overall condition of the suspension it self.

I would like to see someone that is posting with such great authority and experience to simple try a simple test with their PT Cruiser and install or remove a factory sway bar with ALL factory parts and do a simple run on their own special road with a turn and use the various program available for smart phones with accelerometers and post the results. Then we would at least have someone other member with some real data and not "BUTT DYNO" arm chair computer experts responding here!with some real information that to debate a
Just so we don't have a case here of reading more into my earlier post or some other issue of personal filters or of reading comprehension, I'll boil my initial comments down to one sentence: The '03 and newer Cruiser handling setup was not WRONG so you can't FIX it.

So yes, you can CHANGE it and label it an "upgrade" if you want to. You can produce higher "G" numbers and quicker lap times, make it stiffer or smoother, or lower, or wider, or less calories. I personally had 4 different sets of springs/shocks/struts/bars/etc. on my Cruiser and after all that, I basically learned which hemorrhoid cream works best.

I have never driven a '01 or '02 Cruiser with the "factory" external anti-sway bar and then compared it to either of my 2 GTs, and I don't feel the need to. My opinion of the '03 and newer stock suspension is based, as I said, on having a stock suspension and then modifying it by adding an external Mopar bar. My opinion that no car manufacturer would or should sell a car to the general public with what I experienced remains resolute and no tests or numbers are liable to change it. I did drive it that way for years and never felt a need to modify or remove the bar....but I also have an opinion of my driving skills and it's a high one. I'm saying, I think I usually got the most out of the quicker steering.

I'm sure you are developing some great items for Cruisers and are testing way beyond the average schmuck. I'm convinced you are an asset to the Cruiser community. I don't have a problem with you, your tests or your items. I do have an issue with the too prevalent idea that the Cruiser is somehow substandard if it doesn't have a rear bar, though. I see it more as a blank canvas waiting for the master.

Last edited by 2step; 06 Dec 2013 at 11:05 pm.
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Old 06 Dec 2013, 11:13 pm
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Default Re: Why no rear swaybar?

Brian you would have made a great diplomat.


I re-read this thread a and a few others that have to do with sway bars.
A few things seem to be present.
1) to many variables to have any reliable or constant information posted by member's.
2) no real data was ever done
3) to many PT lowered more then 1.75 inches which disrupts proper steering and handling control.
4) to many believe the written word when it it is on a forum without doing the research to find facts.
5) very few (if any) veterans road track drivers to give accurate input about suspension control.




It all boils down to the numbers most PT owners do not really upgrade their PTs for handling and those that do don't really know what they are doing. A PT is not a track candidate to begin with and the suspension upgrade are canned and generic in nature. Funny how after almost 15 years no one ever correct the steering geometry when they lowered their PT's? Brian what does that tell you. That was one of the first things I machined up for my PT.

I should make a list (actually it is a short one) of things I have taken the time to research have experience on or have tested for a PT cruiser so members can expect when threads are started about them to I surely will be posting.

Now back to the MSD coils................
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